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Post by baldy on Jan 19, 2011 13:59:43 GMT
Sorry but you cannot speak for all children. I am telling you, whether you like it or not, my children would NOT swear to a referee on a football field. They have been brought up the right way and it is entirely the parents fault if a child - I'm talking 9,10,11 not 16 - verbally abuses an adult, whether its in the street or on a football pitch. As they progress towards adulthood it will, naturally, become less easy to exert total control but its my belief that if they've been raised with sound principles that they will carry this forward as they grow up. I swear nowadays but I'm in my 40's and work in a predominantly male environment where, if anywhere, swearing is probably most acceptable. I wouldn't swear in the company of females, children or my parents and that is indicative of being brought up in a respectful household. Manners and respect don't cost a penny so there is no excuse and I certainly wouldn't buy that 'thats how I talk on a football pitch' line. I, if I was a referee in kids football, would be more inclined to ask the parents how they've done such a poor job in raising such a respectful kid. What you dont seem to be able to grasp is the clear dividing line between a kid and an adult. Swearing, just like other vices, becomes second nature as an adult and, yes, in an ideal world there wouldn't been any but it happens and you will never remove it and to brandish yellows and reds and reduce games to farce would be ridiculous. Baldy. I applaud your views and most of what you have posted above I totally agree with. But the bit I disagree with is " Swearing, just like other vices, becomes second nature as an adult" Not if you have been brought up not to swear at refs in the first place it doesn't. Why, if you have been taught to respect refs and not to shout and swear at them throughout your childhood, would you change that behaviour when you become an adult. Certain behaviours DO change as you get older. Staying out past your bedtime!, going to pubs etc. Would you behave differently to your parents now that you are an adult, or do you still respect them in the same way as you did before. You have already answered that question. I wouldn't swear in the company of females, children or my parents and that is indicative of being brought up in a respectful household.. So why should referees be excluded from that respect? There's a lot of nonsense spouted by those who are "anti-ref" about respect being earned by referees. They are human and they make mistakes, but, as I have said countless times, they do not cheat. They deserve respect, but they do not receive . It's about time something was done about it. Sihath, if you were hammering a nail into a block of wood, missed the wood and hit your finger a lot of peoples reaction is likely to be, shall we say, a touch industrial. It is an instinctive cursing of something that has caused you hurt or distress. I liken that to the reaction of a football when he thinks he's been wronged by a referee If he says 'Hey, ref thats a ******* **** decision' then that, to me, is nothing particularly personal although it is being aimed at just one person - if that makes sense. We've all been there in village football, you get caught, get up and utter a few expletives, shake hands and get on with it. No one is saying it is right but I really do think there are far more pressing matters that football needs to deal with.
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Post by amarillo on Jan 19, 2011 14:25:59 GMT
But that natural reaction applies for any sport, but in sports where swearing at the ref isn't tolerated, players somehow manage to restrain themselves so why not in football?
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Post by Long John Silver on Jan 19, 2011 14:30:06 GMT
If Wayne Rooney has games where he thinks he's been 'wronged' 27 times, then he's a little paranoid I'd say.
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Post by Gavin Archery on Jan 19, 2011 14:46:23 GMT
If Wayne Rooney has games where he thinks he's been 'wronged' 27 times, then he's a little paranoid I'd say. Rooney is one of those high profile sportsmen whose own behaviour is contradictory to the standards they expect of others. So he would not expect to be subject to a sliding tackle yet is happy to tackle in that way. He is not a dirty player but expects to be left alone to dribble past other players. Fabregas is another. He will tap other players ankles and yet as soon as someone does it to him, the refereee gets the sharp end of his tongue.
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Post by baldy on Jan 19, 2011 14:48:23 GMT
But that natural reaction applies for any sport, but in sports where swearing at the ref isn't tolerated, players somehow manage to restrain themselves so why not in football? Lets take a few sports to compare - Formula 1 - I'm sure if Hamilton is shunted by Schumacher is immediate words would be '*************' Horse Racing - same Golf - I was at the Ryder Cup and clearly heard Mark O'Meara on the sidelines call out 'Straighten you ******' after a wayward drive by one of the americans. He half acknowledged this with an apologetic wave but the 'damage' had been done. People understood it, it was a reaction. Tennis - Even this most gentlemanly of sports has been plagued by bad language following a loose shot In a lot of these sports there is a small amount of time before a decision is arrived at and that is sometimes all it takes for a cooling off. Football is instant and you've got thousands of fans backing you up so your instinct is too fight your corner with a bit more venom. I suppose we will have to just agree to disagree but I do think football is a unique sport with a unigue following and the rawness and passion of it is unrivalled.
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Post by SteMerritt on Jan 19, 2011 14:55:38 GMT
Lets take a few sports to compare - Formula 1 - I'm sure if Hamilton is shunted by Schumacher is immediate words would be '*************' Horse Racing - same Golf - I was at the Ryder Cup and clearly heard Mark O'Meara on the sidelines call out 'Straighten you ******' after a wayward drive by one of the americans. He half acknowledged this with an apologetic wave but the 'damage' had been done. People understood it, it was a reaction. Tennis - Even this most gentlemanly of sports has been plagued by bad language following a loose shot Not one of those examples is a player swearing at an official, which is where all this started, and isn't acceptable even for grown men in a charged atmosphere.
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Post by Gavin Archery on Jan 19, 2011 14:58:12 GMT
Lets take a few sports to compare - Formula 1 - I'm sure if Hamilton is shunted by Schumacher is immediate words would be '*************' Horse Racing - same Golf - I was at the Ryder Cup and clearly heard Mark O'Meara on the sidelines call out 'Straighten you ******' after a wayward drive by one of the americans. He half acknowledged this with an apologetic wave but the 'damage' had been done. People understood it, it was a reaction. Tennis - Even this most gentlemanly of sports has been plagued by bad language following a loose shot Not one of those examples is a player swearing at an official, which is where all this started, and isn't acceptable even for grown men in a charged atmosphere. I completely agree with you, though couldn't be bothered to comment as it wasn't my arguement, but nevertheless now wish to say so.
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Post by Boogaloo on Jan 19, 2011 15:02:32 GMT
If he says 'Hey, ref thats a ******* **** decision' then that, to me, is nothing particularly personal although it is being aimed at just one person - if that makes sense. So that's perfectly acceptable is it? Well in that case the next time Rooney or Berbatov take a dive in the penalty area, rather than just brandishing a yellow card, maybe the referee should yell 'Get up you f***ing cheat' as well'. I'm sure that would really go down well. ;D
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Post by baldy on Jan 19, 2011 15:15:47 GMT
Lets take a few sports to compare - Formula 1 - I'm sure if Hamilton is shunted by Schumacher is immediate words would be '*************' Horse Racing - same Golf - I was at the Ryder Cup and clearly heard Mark O'Meara on the sidelines call out 'Straighten you ******' after a wayward drive by one of the americans. He half acknowledged this with an apologetic wave but the 'damage' had been done. People understood it, it was a reaction. Tennis - Even this most gentlemanly of sports has been plagued by bad language following a loose shot Not one of those examples is a player swearing at an official, which is where all this started, and isn't acceptable even for grown men in a charged atmosphere. Yes it is. In my opinion. Perfectley acceptable.
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Post by headlesspnub on Jan 19, 2011 15:23:41 GMT
Not one of those examples is a player swearing at an official, which is where all this started, and isn't acceptable even for grown men in a charged atmosphere. Yes it is. In my opinion. Perfectley acceptable. So why brandish all the rubbish about other sports and how football is better than them? What YOU think is acceptable and what the rules of the game state are at odds and judging from the majority on this board the rules are correct. It is therefore NOT acceptable in the world of football. Thanks for completely invalidating your own argument. TBH Baldy I've agreed with you on a few points in the past, but your complete inability at seeing things from someone elses point of view (it's called empathy btw) and stubbornness to accept that you might be wrong on this issue is frankly pretty pathetic.
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Post by baldy on Jan 19, 2011 16:19:00 GMT
Yes it is. In my opinion. Perfectley acceptable. So why brandish all the rubbish about other sports and how football is better than them? What YOU think is acceptable and what the rules of the game state are at odds and judging from the majority on this board the rules are correct. It is therefore NOT acceptable in the world of football. Thanks for completely invalidating your own argument. TBH Baldy I've agreed with you on a few points in the past, but your complete inability at seeing things from someone elses point of view (it's called empathy btw) and stubbornness to accept that you might be wrong on this issue is frankly pretty pathetic. And so is your interpretation.
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Post by SteMerritt on Jan 19, 2011 16:45:25 GMT
Yes it is. In my opinion. Perfectley acceptable. And you are entitled to it. But I think you are wrong, that's mine. I know that tempers get pretty heated during games, and I have played enough football in my time to experience it myself, and I have been pretty angry on the pitch on occasions, and playing as a defender I have been lectured countless times, but I have never found the need to abuse a referee. It's all about respect, and players just don't have it for officials.
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Post by baldy on Jan 19, 2011 17:14:09 GMT
Yes it is. In my opinion. Perfectley acceptable. And you are entitled to it. But I think you are wrong, that's mine. I know that tempers get pretty heated during games, and I have played enough football in my time to experience it myself, and I have been pretty angry on the pitch on occasions, and playing as a defender I have been lectured countless times, but I have never found the need to abuse a referee. It's all about respect, and players just don't have it for officials. I'm not saying go in gung ho and call referees all the names under the sun, that wouldnt be acceptable in any walk of life. That is outright verbal abuse But I see a big difference in that and the sort of instinctive reaction like 'Ffs ref, how the **** did you not see that, f****** awful decision'. To me, a referee has to be big enough to swallow that type of talk and get on with the game. In that example I've just given you've got three swear words in one sentence but the actual words are only being used to emphasise a point, you are not calling the referee a '******* ****' - that would be totally unacceptable but if I'm interpreting you and others correctly then you are saying knock out swearing in every form. To me that is too harsh and almost impossible to enforce. We may have to agree to disagree on this one. Wasn't your brother boss at City ? Did he ever swear from his dug out, either out loud or in the direction of the referee ? I wouldn't mind hearing his views on it as he's managed at a decent level where the stakes are a bit higher.
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Post by headlesspnub on Jan 19, 2011 18:49:28 GMT
"Ffs ref, how the **** did you not see that, f****** awful decision".
Where is the respect shown in that sentence? If someone said that to me, at work, I'd certainly class is as abuse. No-one 'has to be big enough to deal with it', it shouldn't happen and certainly not at the top level.
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Post by sihath on Jan 19, 2011 19:19:19 GMT
Baldy. I applaud your views and most of what you have posted above I totally agree with. But the bit I disagree with is " Swearing, just like other vices, becomes second nature as an adult" Not if you have been brought up not to swear at refs in the first place it doesn't. Why, if you have been taught to respect refs and not to shout and swear at them throughout your childhood, would you change that behaviour when you become an adult. Certain behaviours DO change as you get older. Staying out past your bedtime!, going to pubs etc. Would you behave differently to your parents now that you are an adult, or do you still respect them in the same way as you did before. You have already answered that question. I wouldn't swear in the company of females, children or my parents and that is indicative of being brought up in a respectful household.. So why should referees be excluded from that respect? There's a lot of nonsense spouted by those who are "anti-ref" about respect being earned by referees. They are human and they make mistakes, but, as I have said countless times, they do not cheat. They deserve respect, but they do not receive . It's about time something was done about it. Sihath, if you were hammering a nail into a block of wood, missed the wood and hit your finger a lot of peoples reaction is likely to be, shall we say, a touch industrial. It is an instinctive cursing of something that has caused you hurt or distress. I liken that to the reaction of a football when he thinks he's been wronged by a referee If he says 'Hey, ref thats a ******* **** decision' then that, to me, is nothing particularly personal although it is being aimed at just one person - if that makes sense. We've all been there in village football, you get caught, get up and utter a few expletives, shake hands and get on with it. No one is saying it is right but I really do think there are far more pressing matters that football needs to deal with. Spur of the moment stuff is fine. I don't have a problem with it. We've all done it. And I don't think refs have a problem with that kind of thing. Is spur of the moment sprinting 50-60-80 yards to scream abuse at a referee. Is spur of the moment telling Graham Poll to F**K OFF 27 times in 45 minutes.
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Post by YellowHoods on Jan 19, 2011 19:22:17 GMT
Is spur of the moment telling Graham Poll to F**K OFF 27 times in 45 minutes. No. That's being an uneducated imbecile who should be paid in monkey nuts.
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Post by sihath on Jan 19, 2011 19:29:19 GMT
But that natural reaction applies for any sport, but in sports where swearing at the ref isn't tolerated, players somehow manage to restrain themselves so why not in football? Lets take a few sports to compare - Formula 1 - I'm sure if Hamilton is shunted by Schumacher is immediate words would be '*************' Horse Racing - same Golf - I was at the Ryder Cup and clearly heard Mark O'Meara on the sidelines call out 'Straighten you ******' after a wayward drive by one of the americans. He half acknowledged this with an apologetic wave but the 'damage' had been done. People understood it, it was a reaction. Did he run up to one of the officials and swear in his face?Tennis - Even this most gentlemanly of sports has been plagued ? by bad language following a loose shot Swearing at the umpires in tennis usually results in a points deduction. And it's hardly a plague (like in football)In a lot of these sports there is a small amount of time before a decision is arrived at and that is sometimes all it takes for a cooling off. Football is instant and you've got thousands of fans backing you up so your instinct is too fight your corner with a bit more venom. I suppose we will have to just agree to disagree but I do think football is a unique sport with a unigue following and the rawness and passion of it is unrivalled. I agree with your final point. But then every sport is unique. They all have their good points. Doesn't mean that it can't be improved.
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Post by sihath on Jan 19, 2011 19:38:02 GMT
And you are entitled to it. But I think you are wrong, that's mine. I know that tempers get pretty heated during games, and I have played enough football in my time to experience it myself, and I have been pretty angry on the pitch on occasions, and playing as a defender I have been lectured countless times, but I have never found the need to abuse a referee. It's all about respect, and players just don't have it for officials. I'm not saying go in gung ho and call referees all the names under the sun, that wouldnt be acceptable in any walk of life. That is outright verbal abuse But I see a big difference in that and the sort of instinctive reaction like 'Ffs ref, how the **** did you not see that, f****** awful decision'. Perhaps the TV companies could sit a player down after the game and show him why the ref made a decision. More often than not the ref makes the right decision. Watch any game and you will see players challenging the referee when the ref has made the correct decision. Perhaps then the player might say sorry (not holding my breath.To me, a referee has to be big enough to swallow that type of talk and get on with the game. In that example I've just given you've got three swear words in one sentence but the actual words are only being used to emphasise a point, you are not calling the referee a '******* ****' - that would be totally unacceptable but if I'm interpreting you and others correctly then you are saying knock out swearing in every form. Perhaps the player has to be big enough to accept that the referee has made an honest decision (which is probably the correct decision) and get on with the game. You seem to be saying that 22 players can do what they want and the ref has to be the one to take the abuse and just get on with it!!
As an example, what point was Wayne Rooney making when he was telling Poll to F**K OFF 27 times. Was he using the word F**K to place emphasis on the OFF?To me that is too harsh and almost impossible to enforce. We may have to agree to disagree on this one. Wasn't your brother boss at City ? Did he ever swear from his dug out, either out loud or in the direction of the referee ? I wouldn't mind hearing his views on it as he's managed at a decent level where the stakes are a bit higher. How about Brian Clough's attitude to refs.? "Alan Brown taught me about discipline. I knew plenty about that from my mam, of course, but Browny's discipline was applied to the team as a whole as well as to the individual. It was collective discipline. If you need an example, remember how my teams at Derby and Nottingham Forest went about their work: not by effing and blinding at match officials, not by intimidating referees or hacking the ball away in disgust at free kicks given against us. Referees regarded my teams as their favourites because we simplified their jobs. We made refereeing easier than it was with other teams. We didn't antagonise them or chase them with angry words and gestures." His teams did alright
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Post by ConcreteBob on Jan 19, 2011 19:49:19 GMT
Jesus, talk about digging a hole.
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Post by junior1 on Jan 19, 2011 20:02:33 GMT
Lets see how he gets on tonight, in charge of Leeds
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