|
Post by SteMerritt on Jan 18, 2011 14:43:32 GMT
Football is the most honest sport of the three main ones in this country and if the only real downside is some industrial language compared to fixing matches and thuggery then I will take that. That is probably the most laughable thing I have ever read on this site! But then you were defending a player for diving for a penalty last week. Cricket is played with far more respect to officials (which is where this all started) than football, as is rugby. Anyone who stands toe to toe with an official giving them abuse should go, end of. And implying that Cricket is rife with match fixing? Unbelievable.
|
|
|
Post by kenskeen on Jan 18, 2011 14:44:40 GMT
he (wayne Rooney) upholds the integrity of the sport itself.
What a load of portentous cosdswallop!
Wayne Rooney wouldn't recognise the word integrity if it went blonde and spent all day on a sunbed.
When Have Wayne Rooney and integrity even been on the same team. Is it to be found in his diving? In his abusing referees? in his abusing fans? in lying about his intentions?In his badmouthing David Moyes in his book- and having to pay damages? I'm only talking about his football related behaviour.
|
|
|
Post by Sheik Djibouti on Jan 18, 2011 15:05:32 GMT
Rubbish If the ref in rugby does not see the offence at the time then players can be cited by the opposition afterwards and disciplinary action can still be taken. If a players suffers an eye gouge or a stamping/raking, the evidence is there and all they need do is look back at the video evidence to see who should be cited if the ref doesn't pick it up at the time. At the top levels, all matches are videoed and that can be and often is used as evidence. What a load of nonsense. My step dad - played rugby union for England u23's and 15 years for Northampton back in 50's and 60's - cringes at the way rugby has gone and nowadays compares the game unfavourably to football saying that the integrity in a game he once lived for has completely gone. I'd say he's got a better understanding of the game than you and he's 75 with failing eyesight. If I've interpreted your tone correctly then I'm guessing you are implying that todays rugby players somehow are more honest than a modern day footballer - absolute tosh. They are a far worse example for a professional sportsman. ;D Think you've completely lost it (again). So, let me get this straight. Because your stepdad who played rugby 50 years ago cringes at the way the modern game has gone, that means the game has gone to pot all because foul play in the modern game can, and often is cited on the basis of video evidence and players are duly punished as a result? WTF has that got to do with integrity of the modern game?!? I'll tell you something which is a fact. Rugby players respected the referee 50 years ago and still do today. He controls the game and his word is final. Footballers of 50 years ago respected the ref in a similar way . . .can you say the same for today's footballers? The answer is a resounding no and to try and put Wayne Rooney up as some paragon of footablling virtue is at best laughable and at worst betrays where your values lie.
|
|
|
Post by baldy on Jan 18, 2011 15:20:12 GMT
Football is the most honest sport of the three main ones in this country and if the only real downside is some industrial language compared to fixing matches and thuggery then I will take that. That is probably the most laughable thing I have ever read on this site! But then you were defending a player for diving for a penalty last week. Cricket is played with far more respect to officials (which is where this all started) than football, as is rugby. Anyone who stands toe to toe with an official giving them abuse should go, end of. And implying that Cricket is rife with match fixing? Unbelievable. Yes, I do think football is the most honest of the three. You have to add perspective to this. Football is a fast and furious game with massive crowd participation and will always run on more abrenalin than cricket and subsequently there will be more bad mouthing but my point was about the honesty and integrity. The modern day cricketers act just as loutishly as the modern day footballers. Look at the way the England players turned up at Downing Street - pissed basically. If that had been Rooney he'd have been clobbered. There have also been indiscretions on numerous overseas tours. Once again had that been football it would have been seen as 'Brits abroad' as opposed to cricketers on a jolly. Match fixing isn't rife but its more prevelant than it is in football thats for sure. Rugby is full of cheats too, mainly on the field of play with blatant acts of foul play but there was also the blood capsule incident. Again blatant cheating.
|
|
|
Post by ConcreteBob on Jan 18, 2011 15:23:03 GMT
I must have missed this one, but GOOD GRIEF this is funny.
|
|
|
Post by amarillo on Jan 18, 2011 15:34:56 GMT
I'm no fan of cricket or rugby, but in terms of the players and supporters behaviour I wish football was more like those sports. Its laughable to suggest that cricketers are as loutish as footballers.
|
|
|
Post by baldy on Jan 18, 2011 15:48:28 GMT
At risk of repeating myself all I am doing is questioning the integrity of the respective sports. I'd say there are a lot, a vast number, of niggling examples of gamesmanship in football where players are trying to get a head start on an opponent but I can't think of too many exapmles as blatantly premeditated as the blood capsule incident in rugby or match fixing in cricket. These sort of incidents have involved pre planned meetings to arrange.
By all means give me some examples in football whereby its integrity and honesty are on par with these - either in this country or at the top end of the game not some far flung outpost. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but I just can't think of any examples.
|
|
|
Post by SteMerritt on Jan 18, 2011 15:53:13 GMT
Yes, I do think football is the most honest of the three. You have to add perspective to this. Football is a fast and furious game with massive crowd participation and will always run on more abrenalin than cricket and subsequently there will be more bad mouthing but my point was about the honesty and integrity. The modern day cricketers act just as loutishly as the modern day footballers. Look at the way the England players turned up at Downing Street - pissed basically. If that had been Rooney he'd have been clobbered. There have also been indiscretions on numerous overseas tours. Once again had that been football it would have been seen as 'Brits abroad' as opposed to cricketers on a jolly. Match fixing isn't rife but its more prevelant than it is in football thats for sure. Rugby is full of cheats too, mainly on the field of play with blatant acts of foul play but there was also the blood capsule incident. Again blatant cheating. Yeah, England players turn up hung over at Downing Street (and basically it was just Freddie, who was blasted in the press), not like the good old honest footballers, beating up girlfriends, fights in nightclubs, going with prostitutes, all over the papers cheating on their partners etc. You just can't compare the 2 (and I wasn't, I was talking about respect on the field, you brought this bollox up). Incidents overseas? I presume you are on about the Pedalo incident? Can't think of any others. Now, footballers overseas, hmmm, Bellamy (I believe) letting off fire extinguishers, quite often hear of players sent home for drinking etc. France causing a mutiny during the World Cup, Roy Keane sent home during another world cup. Bloody angels these footballers. Match fixing in cricket? More prevalent than in football? Bruce Grobbelaar ring a bell to you? Milan docked loads of points for bribing refs, Juventus relegated? Matt Le Tissier saying in his book they tried to win a spot bet from a kick-off? That's off the top of my head. Of course you could even go back to Paolo Rossi if you wanted to... There is absolutely no doubt that cricketers are far less loutish than footballers, to suggest otherwise is just idiotic. There is nothing 'Honest' or full of 'integrity' with diving for free-kicks, "waiting for the contact then going down" or surrounding an official to remonstrate with a decision. Football is blighted by all 3 of these, and the sooner attitudes are changed the better.
|
|
|
Post by SteMerritt on Jan 18, 2011 15:56:43 GMT
...and what I will say as well, 'match fixing' doesn't really happen in cricket. What you are most likely referring to is 'spot fixing', which isn't the same thing at all (as in the case of the Pakistan team recently). The only case I can think of where you could say that it looks like 'Match Fixing' took place is the Hansie Cronje incidents about 10 years ago
|
|
|
Post by Lone Gunman on Jan 18, 2011 17:36:20 GMT
I think baldy's finally lost the plot. Here he's trying to defend a view which cannot be defended by increasingly bizarre arguments.
If he really thinks football is the most honest sport he really is on another planet!
|
|
Denby
Junior Member
Posts: 77
|
Post by Denby on Jan 18, 2011 18:01:41 GMT
A second referee speaks.
As Poll said, referee's these days are expected to show a yellow card for that. Junior, you clearly don't understand the game well enough if you're naive enough to believe that was an accident.
Two signs he's guilty. 1. He pegs it away as soon as he fouls. 2. His arms are in the air before he even makes contact.
I suggest we all ignore Baldy's claims about football and cricket. What he seems to forget is Rooney had nothing to celebrate about which is why he would be clobbered, the England cricketers have just thrashed their fiercest rivals.
The state of dissent in the game is an utter, utter disgrace. People like Rooney and Rafael are seen on camera swearing and action is rarely taken, which makes life difficult for ref's like me on the Hellenic league where the swearing seems to be twice as bad, but then as soon as action is taken, they argue that the top players don't get that treatment so why should they.
|
|
|
Post by unification on Jan 18, 2011 18:01:55 GMT
Utter madness. The Bald one can contribute some interesting stuff at times, but this is just bizarre.
|
|
|
Post by headlesspnub on Jan 18, 2011 19:12:52 GMT
Unfortunately Baldy appears to have based his opinions of Rugby and Cricket on a couple of very high profile acts of cheating and bad behaviour, but by doing so has demonstrated his lack of knowledge of the sports in question. Ricky Ponting questioned the umpires recently and was fined half his match fee and was widely criticised by the press and his peers. An example was made of him to clamp down on this rare behaviour. It does not compare with what goes on week in, week out across the football league. Cheating happens in every football game at every level in the form of conning the ref and blatant diving never mind the rest of it. In those terms other sports just don't compare.
|
|
|
Post by sihath on Jan 18, 2011 22:53:27 GMT
At risk of repeating myself all I am doing is questioning the integrity of the respective sports. I'd say there are a lot, a vast number, of niggling examples of gamesmanship in football where players are trying to get a head start on an opponent but I can't think of too many exapmles as blatantly premeditated as the blood capsule incident in rugby or match fixing in cricket. These sort of incidents have involved pre planned meetings to arrange. By all means give me some examples in football whereby its integrity and honesty are on par with these - either in this country or at the top end of the game not some far flung outpost. If I'm wrong I'm wrong but I just can't think of any examples. The rugby player involved in "Bloodgate" was banned for 4 months. The coach (Dean Richards) was banned for 3 years. When rugby players and coaches step out of line (cheat) they are punished. Theo Walcott admits to cheating and....... nothing done about it.
|
|
|
Post by baldy on Jan 18, 2011 23:35:23 GMT
Would anyone be happy for their kids to swear and scream at refs? What age kids do you mean ? I think an adolescent could probably be forgiven for an inadvertent slip of the tongue but any younger and I would be appalled. Anyway, I've never understood these parents who say 'kids pick up bad language of the tv and repeat it in the playground'. Maybe if the parents are a pair of chavish half wits with no parental control then it might be relevant but not in my house. My kids know right from wrong and would never swear on a football field. Not a chance. If your little Tommy swears at the referee in his under 10's league then don't blame Wayne Rooney blame the pair of thickets who haven't brought him up with any respect or manners. It's quite pathetic to blame that sort of behaviour on a supposed role model. Your kids model themselves on two people and blame them if they can't behave or lack respect.
|
|
|
Post by kenskeen on Jan 18, 2011 23:41:51 GMT
So does Sir Alex has to take responsibility for wifebeater Darren and foulmouthed Wayne?
|
|
Denby
Junior Member
Posts: 77
|
Post by Denby on Jan 19, 2011 6:42:49 GMT
Would anyone be happy for their kids to swear and scream at refs? What age kids do you mean ? I think an adolescent could probably be forgiven for an inadvertent slip of the tongue but any younger and I would be appalled. Anyway, I've never understood these parents who say 'kids pick up bad language of the tv and repeat it in the playground'. Maybe if the parents are a pair of chavish half wits with no parental control then it might be relevant but not in my house. My kids know right from wrong and would never swear on a football field. Not a chance. If your little Tommy swears at the referee in his under 10's league then don't blame Wayne Rooney blame the pair of thickets who haven't brought him up with any respect or manners. It's quite pathetic to blame that sort of behaviour on a supposed role model. Your kids model themselves on two people and blame them if they can't behave or lack respect. Inadvertent slip of the tongue? I've moved on from Kids football this season but seriously, I refereed it all last season and none of it is inadvertent. all I can really say (and this applies to mens football too) is :' Language fella(s), I know your frustrated but that's not neccesarry' To which most reply 'It's the way I speak on a football pitch'. I'll only take action if it's towards me, or a bad case towards another player - or the game will be done and dusted after 20 minutes due to too many red cards. Rooney isn't to blame for it - but if the culture amongst youngsters of swearing constantly was removed , then it wouldn't filter through to the up and coming pros, as those youngsters potentially become pros. If the FA starts to clamp down at the top though and set a national example, then that allows lower league ref's to take servere action too - and have a justification in doing so. Baldy, you have pointed out a few examples where shame has been bought onto different sports - your yet to point out an English example, and your not considering the games in general - No Diouf's in rugby or cricket... No swearing at officials in rugby... rarely any swearing in cricket at all... A lot of sunday cricketers walk if they know they are out... how many footballers walk if they know they have committed red card offences... you're deluded if you really think football is a more honest sport than both of them
|
|
|
Post by baldy on Jan 19, 2011 8:53:10 GMT
What age kids do you mean ? I think an adolescent could probably be forgiven for an inadvertent slip of the tongue but any younger and I would be appalled. Anyway, I've never understood these parents who say 'kids pick up bad language of the tv and repeat it in the playground'. Maybe if the parents are a pair of chavish half wits with no parental control then it might be relevant but not in my house. My kids know right from wrong and would never swear on a football field. Not a chance. If your little Tommy swears at the referee in his under 10's league then don't blame Wayne Rooney blame the pair of thickets who haven't brought him up with any respect or manners. It's quite pathetic to blame that sort of behaviour on a supposed role model. Your kids model themselves on two people and blame them if they can't behave or lack respect. Inadvertent slip of the tongue? I've moved on from Kids football this season but seriously, I refereed it all last season and none of it is inadvertent. all I can really say (and this applies to mens football too) is :' Language fella(s), I know your frustrated but that's not neccesarry' To which most reply 'It's the way I speak on a football pitch'. I'll only take action if it's towards me, or a bad case towards another player - or the game will be done and dusted after 20 minutes due to too many red cards. Rooney isn't to blame for it - but if the culture amongst youngsters of swearing constantly was removed , then it wouldn't filter through to the up and coming pros, as those youngsters potentially become pros. If the FA starts to clamp down at the top though and set a national example, then that allows lower league ref's to take servere action too - and have a justification in doing so. Baldy, you have pointed out a few examples where shame has been bought onto different sports - your yet to point out an English example, and your not considering the games in general - No Diouf's in rugby or cricket... No swearing at officials in rugby... rarely any swearing in cricket at all... A lot of sunday cricketers walk if they know they are out... how many footballers walk if they know they have committed red card offences... you're deluded if you really think football is a more honest sport than both of them Sorry but you cannot speak for all children. I am telling you, whether you like it or not, my children would NOT swear to a referee on a football field. They have been brought up the right way and it is entirely the parents fault if a child - I'm talking 9,10,11 not 16 - verbally abuses an adult, whether its in the street or on a football pitch. As they progress towards adulthood it will, naturally, become less easy to exert total control but its my belief that if they've been raised with sound principles that they will carry this forward as they grow up. I swear nowadays but I'm in my 40's and work in a predominantly male environment where, if anywhere, swearing is probably most acceptable. I wouldn't swear in the company of females, children or my parents and that is indicative of being brought up in a respectful household. Manners and respect don't cost a penny so there is no excuse and I certainly wouldn't buy that 'thats how I talk on a football pitch' line. I, if I was a referee in kids football, would be more inclined to ask the parents how they've done such a poor job in raising such a respectful kid. What you dont seem to be able to grasp is the clear dividing line between a kid and an adult. Swearing, just like other vices, becomes second nature as an adult and, yes, in an ideal world there wouldn't been any but it happens and you will never remove it and to brandish yellows and reds and reduce games to farce would be ridiculous.
|
|
|
Post by baldy on Jan 19, 2011 9:06:01 GMT
What age kids do you mean ? I think an adolescent could probably be forgiven for an inadvertent slip of the tongue but any younger and I would be appalled. Anyway, I've never understood these parents who say 'kids pick up bad language of the tv and repeat it in the playground'. Maybe if the parents are a pair of chavish half wits with no parental control then it might be relevant but not in my house. My kids know right from wrong and would never swear on a football field. Not a chance. If your little Tommy swears at the referee in his under 10's league then don't blame Wayne Rooney blame the pair of thickets who haven't brought him up with any respect or manners. It's quite pathetic to blame that sort of behaviour on a supposed role model. Your kids model themselves on two people and blame them if they can't behave or lack respect. Inadvertent slip of the tongue? I've moved on from Kids football this season but seriously, I refereed it all last season and none of it is inadvertent. all I can really say (and this applies to mens football too) is :' Language fella(s), I know your frustrated but that's not neccesarry' To which most reply 'It's the way I speak on a football pitch'. I'll only take action if it's towards me, or a bad case towards another player - or the game will be done and dusted after 20 minutes due to too many red cards. Rooney isn't to blame for it - but if the culture amongst youngsters of swearing constantly was removed , then it wouldn't filter through to the up and coming pros, as those youngsters potentially become pros. If the FA starts to clamp down at the top though and set a national example, then that allows lower league ref's to take servere action too - and have a justification in doing so. Baldy, you have pointed out a few examples where shame has been bought onto different sports - your yet to point out an English example, and your not considering the games in general - No Diouf's in rugby or cricket... No swearing at officials in rugby... rarely any swearing in cricket at all... A lot of sunday cricketers walk if they know they are out... how many footballers walk if they know they have committed red card offences... you're deluded if you really think football is a more honest sport than both of themOk, lets re-word it - less sinister. Football is played by the masses and is the predominant sport in the world, cricket is a minority sport on that scale so its all relative. There will be more talking points in football naturally but cricket is a tainted sport and one with, I believe, a darker side than football. There is match fixing, betting inconsistencies, what about Bob Woolmer ? There was the suggestion that he'd been murdered in his hotel with players being implicated. I think it was all cleared but often no smoke without fire and there is a lingering air in cricket particularly. Football has some obnoxious characters and is full of frustrating gamesmanship but in the bigger picture I think its pretty clean considering its global appeal.
|
|
|
Post by sihath on Jan 19, 2011 12:25:07 GMT
Inadvertent slip of the tongue? I've moved on from Kids football this season but seriously, I refereed it all last season and none of it is inadvertent. all I can really say (and this applies to mens football too) is :' Language fella(s), I know your frustrated but that's not neccesarry' To which most reply 'It's the way I speak on a football pitch'. I'll only take action if it's towards me, or a bad case towards another player - or the game will be done and dusted after 20 minutes due to too many red cards. Rooney isn't to blame for it - but if the culture amongst youngsters of swearing constantly was removed , then it wouldn't filter through to the up and coming pros, as those youngsters potentially become pros. If the FA starts to clamp down at the top though and set a national example, then that allows lower league ref's to take servere action too - and have a justification in doing so. Baldy, you have pointed out a few examples where shame has been bought onto different sports - your yet to point out an English example, and your not considering the games in general - No Diouf's in rugby or cricket... No swearing at officials in rugby... rarely any swearing in cricket at all... A lot of sunday cricketers walk if they know they are out... how many footballers walk if they know they have committed red card offences... you're deluded if you really think football is a more honest sport than both of them Sorry but you cannot speak for all children. I am telling you, whether you like it or not, my children would NOT swear to a referee on a football field. They have been brought up the right way and it is entirely the parents fault if a child - I'm talking 9,10,11 not 16 - verbally abuses an adult, whether its in the street or on a football pitch. As they progress towards adulthood it will, naturally, become less easy to exert total control but its my belief that if they've been raised with sound principles that they will carry this forward as they grow up. I swear nowadays but I'm in my 40's and work in a predominantly male environment where, if anywhere, swearing is probably most acceptable. I wouldn't swear in the company of females, children or my parents and that is indicative of being brought up in a respectful household. Manners and respect don't cost a penny so there is no excuse and I certainly wouldn't buy that 'thats how I talk on a football pitch' line. I, if I was a referee in kids football, would be more inclined to ask the parents how they've done such a poor job in raising such a respectful kid. What you dont seem to be able to grasp is the clear dividing line between a kid and an adult. Swearing, just like other vices, becomes second nature as an adult and, yes, in an ideal world there wouldn't been any but it happens and you will never remove it and to brandish yellows and reds and reduce games to farce would be ridiculous. Baldy. I applaud your views and most of what you have posted above I totally agree with. But the bit I disagree with is " Swearing, just like other vices, becomes second nature as an adult" Not if you have been brought up not to swear at refs in the first place it doesn't. Why, if you have been taught to respect refs and not to shout and swear at them throughout your childhood, would you change that behaviour when you become an adult. Certain behaviours DO change as you get older. Staying out past your bedtime!, going to pubs etc. Would you behave differently to your parents now that you are an adult, or do you still respect them in the same way as you did before. You have already answered that question. I wouldn't swear in the company of females, children or my parents and that is indicative of being brought up in a respectful household.. So why should referees be excluded from that respect? There's a lot of nonsense spouted by those who are "anti-ref" about respect being earned by referees. They are human and they make mistakes, but, as I have said countless times, they do not cheat. They deserve respect, but they do not receive . It's about time something was done about it.
|
|