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Post by junior1 on Jan 16, 2011 21:13:08 GMT
Why's it a foul? Did he set out to foul him?? Was it deliberate?
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Post by kenskeen on Jan 16, 2011 21:19:09 GMT
I think so. Clipped his heel as he's running.
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Post by baldy on Jan 16, 2011 21:21:27 GMT
It really bugs me... Forget today's game. The 2 teams, surely the ref can see what happend and with a better understanding of the game waves play on !? Its not play on, its a foul. Just because he doesnt mean to trip him doesnt mean it isnt a foul. You're better than that. You know as well as anybody that it wasnt a foul and that it was a pure coming together. Rafaels run didnt deviate an inch, he was just trying to get back goal side. Ferguson refused to say a word about Dean. He just said to Sky 'You saw it, you report it'. You could sense he was livid about it. Dean is an utterly incompetent referee who should never ever get big games. My opening post guaranteed a talking point with him and he sure didnt disappoint, I'd have staked my life on him being centre stage in these sort of games. There has to be an independent inquiry into his officiating at big TV games because with the regularity that he gets embroiled in poor decision making it will soon be seen as sinister as opposed to coincidence. The premier league should drop him immediately. Give him the 4th officials job or something but just get him out of the action on the pitch because he's spoiling games.
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Post by sihath on Jan 16, 2011 21:27:12 GMT
I think the sending off was harsh but debatable.
The penalty was clear cut. That's the decision that you should be talking about.
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Post by fistfullofdollars on Jan 16, 2011 21:32:00 GMT
Its not play on, its a foul. Just because he doesnt mean to trip him doesnt mean it isnt a foul. You're better than that. You know as well as anybody that it wasnt a foul and that it was a pure coming together. Rafaels run didnt deviate an inch, he was just trying to get back goal side. Ferguson refused to say a word about Dean. He just said to Sky 'You saw it, you report it'. You could sense he was livid about it. Dean is an utterly incompetent referee who should never ever get big games. My opening post guaranteed a talking point with him and he sure didnt disappoint, I'd have staked my life on him being centre stage in these sort of games. There has to be an independent inquiry into his officiating at big TV games because with the regularity that he gets embroiled in poor decision making it will soon be seen as sinister as opposed to coincidence. The premier league should drop him immediately. Give him the 4th officials job or something but just get him out of the action on the pitch because he's spoiling games. Firstly i didnt think it was worthy of a second yellow card. however it is clearly a foul. Just because he clips his leg accidently does not stop it being a foul. The reason i didnt think it was worth a second yellow is because it was an accident. I think some of you are getting confused as to what constitutes a foul. Whether it is intentional or not, it stopped the run of the spurs player (was it Modric?) and whether that is by accident or not is neither here nor there, Spurs were disadvantaged, so a foul was the right decision. Anyway, fair result in my opinion, Spurs probably shaded it but a draw looked about right.
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Post by fistfullofdollars on Jan 16, 2011 21:34:17 GMT
Why's it a foul? Did he set out to foul him?? Was it deliberate? C'mon Junior, either you dont know the rules of you are being delibratly difficult about this one. Intent is not the name of the game, sometimes a player commits a foul by without setting out to do so, maybe they mistime a challange, slip or whatever, surely you recognise that? Doesnt stop it being a foul though.
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Post by junior1 on Jan 16, 2011 22:35:05 GMT
I get that and I worded it wrong..
What I don't like and the red today proved it, is that the refs are so out of touch with the game
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Post by Dougie07 on Jan 16, 2011 22:53:45 GMT
I was talking to Junior about this earlier and I still don't understand it. When a marker gets the wrong side of his man and tries to get back goalside, the ankles are often clipped. Sometimes this happens deliberately and sometimes it is an accident. However, for as long as I can remember, it has been a yellow card offence. Always. Referees never allow for the accidental contact that is entirely possible when crossing paths. It is a foul but there is a difference in deliberate contact and accidental contact.
I can understand why he booked him. The precedent has been set many times. I can't remember the last time a player wasn't booked for that offence but why is it a standard booking? If the player is running through on goal, I can understand a yellow or worse but not in this situation.
I think there are certain situations where even an accidental clash of ankles can be a yellow or even a red, but it shouldn't be an automatic yellow card (as it clearly is at the moment) regardless of the specific factors in the incident.
Both yellows today were very soft and as the second was clearly accidental, just give him a final warning, give Spurs a free kick and get on with it.
That said, his reaction was a disgrace and his card waving was equally pathetic. Pleasing to see Ferdinand give him a clip round the ear. Even when you've been hard done by, you don't get in a referee's face like that. He's got a lot to learn.
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Post by junior1 on Jan 16, 2011 23:01:28 GMT
Good stuff dougie. I agree with it all, almost !
Firstly rafeal was fouled shortly after getting a yellow himself . Mike Dean didn't look like booking the player until he got in his face ( I hate the action btw )
You've covered the red well just annoys me it was Dean who gave it
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Post by baldy on Jan 16, 2011 23:39:39 GMT
I can sort of seeing what you are saying Dougie but my bone of contention is that Rafael was running in a straight line away from the man in possession and made no outward movement with his leg to catch the player, I fail to see what more he could have done. If he'd have just stood off and not chased back then he'd have risked Fergies wrath. If there is an obvious flick of the leg or something then I can see how it's a definite booking because that would rightly be seen as a cynical foul but not this.
You could equally say that the heel of the attacker could catch the defender as much as it is the defender catching the attacker. It is an impossibility to say who is at fault in this incident because it is a classic 50/50.
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Post by Dougie07 on Jan 16, 2011 23:52:58 GMT
The simple fact is that when a player who has the ball is felled due to contact with an opposing player, deliberate or not, it is a foul. I don't think Rafael meant to touch him for a second. In truth, I think he made every effort not to touch him and messed it up. Due to the reasons you provide, it's simply an accidental offence, a free kick and we should have got on with things. The player's motion was clearly halted by Rafael so we can't say it isn't a foul. Even if it is a 50/50 collision where nobody is at fault, he has the ball so will obviously get the decision. It was an unfortunate foul, entirely accidental and in a sensible world, we wouldn't have had a need to talk about it any further.
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Post by junior1 on Jan 17, 2011 0:09:15 GMT
The simple fact is that when a player who has the ball is felled due to contact with an opposing player, deliberate or not, it is a foul. I don't think Rafael meant to touch him for a second. In truth, I think he made every effort not to touch him and messed it up. Due to the reasons you provide, it's simply an accidental offence, a free kick and we should have got on with things. The player's motion was clearly halted by Rafael so we can't say it isn't a foul. Even if it is a 50/50 collision where nobody is at fault, he has the ball so will obviously get the decision. It was an unfortunate foul, entirely accidental and in a sensible world, we wouldn't have had a need to talk about it any further. Good stuff you 2. I can see it both ways with regards the foul but why the yellow
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Post by headlesspnub on Jan 17, 2011 0:23:56 GMT
You could equally say that the heel of the attacker could catch the defender as much as it is the defender catching the attacker. It is an impossibility to say who is at fault in this incident because it is a classic 50/50. If you really believe this then you are showing yourself up to be honest and letting your bias get in the way of things. If someone drives into the back of your car it's not your fault, even if they are moving faster than you. If it had been a Bradford player on an Oxford one or even (dare I saw it) a Arsenal player on anyone, I doubt we'd be getting the same reaction. Let me say I don't think it should have been a yellow, but as soon as I saw the incident I thought it would be. As Dougie says, the precedent has been set.
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Post by Agadoo on Jan 17, 2011 9:33:10 GMT
Its not play on, its a foul. Just because he doesnt mean to trip him doesnt mean it isnt a foul. You're better than that. You know as well as anybody that it wasnt a foul and that it was a pure coming together. Rafaels run didnt deviate an inch, he was just trying to get back goal side. Ferguson refused to say a word about Dean. He just said to Sky 'You saw it, you report it'. You could sense he was livid about it. Dean is an utterly incompetent referee who should never ever get big games. My opening post guaranteed a talking point with him and he sure didnt disappoint, I'd have staked my life on him being centre stage in these sort of games. There has to be an independent inquiry into his officiating at big TV games because with the regularity that he gets embroiled in poor decision making it will soon be seen as sinister as opposed to coincidence. The premier league should drop him immediately. Give him the 4th officials job or something but just get him out of the action on the pitch because he's spoiling games. If there's an investigation into Dean's officiating can we include Howard Webb ? He's given plenty of favourable decisions for Man Utd so should be investigated as well
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Post by Boogaloo on Jan 17, 2011 9:49:00 GMT
Excuses, excuses, excuses. Baldy - If you want to point the finger of blame, then I suggest you look no further than Fergie. He got it all wrong yesterday, notching up 8 draws away from home out of ten is not Premier League winning form.
What Big Al need to realise is that he can't hand-pick refs to suit him - He's not going to have Howard Webb refereeing ever single Man Utd game, so if he is looking to win the title this season he should look a little closer to home if he wants to play the blame game.
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Post by baldy on Jan 17, 2011 11:58:55 GMT
Excuses, excuses, excuses. Baldy - If you want to point the finger of blame, then I suggest you look no further than Fergie. He got it all wrong yesterday, notching up 8 draws away from home out of ten is not Premier League winning form. What Big Al need to realise is that he can't hand-pick refs to suit him - He's not going to have Howard Webb refereeing ever single Man Utd game, so if he is looking to win the title this season he should look a little closer to home if he wants to play the blame game. 'All wrong' ? - That was a tremendous defensive display to get a point at a difficult venue. Only regret can be that the sending off meant Man U had to shut up shop 15 minutes early and that prevented a frenetic finale and the chance of three points. Take a look at the table next time before you make yourself look an even bigger mug.
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Post by unification on Jan 17, 2011 12:29:26 GMT
Excuses, excuses, excuses. Baldy - If you want to point the finger of blame, then I suggest you look no further than Fergie. He got it all wrong yesterday, notching up 8 draws away from home out of ten is not Premier League winning form. What Big Al need to realise is that he can't hand-pick refs to suit him - He's not going to have Howard Webb refereeing ever single Man Utd game, so if he is looking to win the title this season he should look a little closer to home if he wants to play the blame game. 'All wrong' ? - That was a tremendous defensive display to get a point at a difficult venue. Only regret can be that the sending off meant Man U had to shut up shop 15 minutes early and that prevented a frenetic finale and the chance of three points. Take a look at the table next time before you make yourself look an even bigger mug. Defensive display - agree. It's why Man Yoo are top of the pile this time around. Ferdinand has been outstanding this season. However, you've failed to address Boogaloo's point regarding 8 draws out of 10 away from Old Trafford. If you look at away games, things read: Man United - 14 points out of a possible 30 Man City - 21 points out of a possible 33 Arsenal - 24 points out of a possible 36 Manchester United's away form is only as good as Tottenham's. Old Trafford remains the fortress, but if Man United could win away from home then they would be strolling the league. You were only saying yourself that two wins and a defeat is better than a win and two draws. It's about time Man United started showing that.
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Post by baldy on Jan 17, 2011 13:07:39 GMT
'All wrong' ? - That was a tremendous defensive display to get a point at a difficult venue. Only regret can be that the sending off meant Man U had to shut up shop 15 minutes early and that prevented a frenetic finale and the chance of three points. Take a look at the table next time before you make yourself look an even bigger mug. Defensive display - agree. It's why Man Yoo are top of the pile this time around. Ferdinand has been outstanding this season. However, you've failed to address Boogaloo's point regarding 8 draws out of 10 away from Old Trafford. If you look at away games, things read: Man United - 14 points out of a possible 30 Man City - 21 points out of a possible 33 Arsenal - 24 points out of a possible 36 Manchester United's away form is only as good as Tottenham's. Old Trafford remains the fortress, but if Man United could win away from home then they would be strolling the league. You were only saying yourself that two wins and a defeat is better than a win and two draws. It's about time Man United started showing that. Win at home, draw away, is probably outdated thinking nowadays but its not far short of what is required and Man U remain bang on course. They are up on that formula I've just given in that they have only messed up in one home game but have picked up two wins on the road. If they keep going at their current rate then they will win the title, simple as that. Yes, they could be making it easier for themselves by picking up a few more on the road but its all looking rosey and having watched them yesterday I really think they can now go unbeaten. They've kept Tottenham (twice), Arsenal and City to about five half chances - that is impressive.
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Post by Boogaloo on Jan 17, 2011 13:11:23 GMT
You forgot to mention that even Blackpool have a better away record than Man Utd! ;D
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Post by sihath on Jan 17, 2011 13:13:48 GMT
Defensive display - agree. It's why Man Yoo are top of the pile this time around. Ferdinand has been outstanding this season. However, you've failed to address Boogaloo's point regarding 8 draws out of 10 away from Old Trafford. If you look at away games, things read: Man United - 14 points out of a possible 30 Man City - 21 points out of a possible 33 Arsenal - 24 points out of a possible 36 Manchester United's away form is only as good as Tottenham's. Old Trafford remains the fortress, but if Man United could win away from home then they would be strolling the league. You were only saying yourself that two wins and a defeat is better than a win and two draws. It's about time Man United started showing that. Win at home, draw away, is probably outdated thinking nowadays but its not far short of what is required and Man U remain bang on course. They are up on that formula I've just given in that they have only messed up in one home game but have picked up two wins on the road. If they keep going at their current rate then they will win the title, simple as that. Yes, they could be making it easier for themselves by picking up a few more on the road but its all looking rosey and having watched them yesterday I really think they can now go unbeaten. They've kept Tottenham (twice), Arsenal and City to about five half chances - that is impressive. You're right about win at home draw away being good enough. They still aren't playing as well as they can and that has to be ominous for everyone else. If they do lose a game this season I don't think it'll necessarily be to a 'top' side. The way this season has gone it might be someone like Blackpool. A bit like Burnley last season (or season before?)
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