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Post by Potters Right Boot on Jan 10, 2011 12:04:17 GMT
Re - Oxvox value for money. I'm a member of Oxvox (just an ordinary member, not on the committee or anything) and an exile. I don't really expect 'value for money' as such. I support Oxvox because it is the ONLY organised body that tries to represent the views of the supporters to the club. Now I accept that there are almost as many views as there are supporters, so they are never going to be able to put them all to everyone's satisfaction. But let's take these minutes for example. I seem to remember that views on what the questions to put to IL were canvassed for on here, by members and non members. Presumably some (at least) of them were asked. We will eventually get at least some sort of answer. My subs to Oxvox helped to finance the travel costs that the attendees incurred in travelling to the meeting. I'm happy with that. Why should they have to pay themselves? I can't even remember what I paid for my two year subscription to OV - but it was less than the cost of one away ticket, and certainly a lot less than the cost of petrol that I have to pay to go to every match. If there was no Oxvox (or equivalent) who would have even managed to get a meeting with IL? I'd suggest none of us. There are also a couple of other things. Saying OV is cliquey is wide of the mark IMO. Of course many of the people know each other well - they've been fans and OV members for years. I don't really know anyone in the organisation apart from to nod at when I see them at games (they are probably wondering who the hell I am!). Also, people saying they won't join because there aren't enough people to make is representative is a self-fulfilling prophesy! Sorry to rattle on, but it seems to me that the people who spend their own time and (I suspect) money in helping to run Oxvox with entirely the right motivations often get the rough end of the stick on here for no good reason. IL might be late returning his version of the minutes, but that is HIS fault not Oxvox's!!! To clear up a point. I,m an exile and a committee member. (There is another exile on the committee as well.) I travel from London for OxVox committee meetings, (to be fair do not attend all of them) and have never received a penny piece in travel costs. As far as I'm concerned the sub for members is pitched at the right price. Its for others to say of course but Oxvox committee is not cliquey, one thing we do have in common is that we are all huge supporters of the club. Some of us are SSU, some are East Stand. We still speak to each other though We have a good mix of ages on board at moment but would be good to have the younger supporter element represented. Our AGM is coming up soon and there wil be some committee places available. Our rules state that 25% (I think) of our board have to stand for reelection. I'm one of those up for the chop this year. As stated elsewhere the notes of our meeting with IL will be made available to our members later today.
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Post by Brahma Bull on Jan 10, 2011 12:16:43 GMT
Membership fees have always been a contentious point and at present, a 3 year membership costs £15 (£5 year is the way I like to sell it). If people really resent paying £5 then we do a nominal fee and then the Trust suffers.
As Trevor has pointed out and I have done previously, the Trust has done alot for supporters in recent years, spending over £2400 on the Heritage Project (the Yellow Boards in the SS), doing the 5000 strong petition and all the expenses that went with that, spending money to repair the Programme booths in the South Stand and East Stand, doing the website, subscribing to survey tools, the list is endless.
One point though which is really important, none of the committee in my 3 years involved have ever taken personal expenses. So when we travel monthly into Oxford for our committee meetings, when we meet the club off site around the city, when we met Mr Lenagan recently, everyone who goes makes their own way and spends their own money on refreshments (although perhaps we could change that!!??).
I and Tim spend alot of money traveling into Oxford for OxVox, not that either of us mind, as we both live long distances away. Others have to travel in from work from London and Bicester to get into meetings.
The meeting notes are about to be released and I am sure they will be relayed on here quickly. Ian Lenagan for the record has not amended them and other than a few minor adjustments they are as proposed.
E-membership was implemented to address the objection of having to sign up to be a member. Trevor above has detailed the login address.
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Post by Brahma Bull on Jan 10, 2011 12:21:42 GMT
Great minds think alike Mr Right Boot although you have a few years on me. For the record, I have only just sneaked into my 30's
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nerps
Full Member
Posts: 249
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Post by nerps on Jan 10, 2011 12:51:17 GMT
He's telling the truth Right boot, it's just that he looks older !! I can't count the number of times I confused him with Bob !!!!!!
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Post by Mark Sennett on Jan 10, 2011 13:12:29 GMT
Firstly on the notes. IL has sent these back and they didn't contain any factual changes. He apologized for not getting back sooner but his attention has be on an urgent family matter since before Xmas. These notes are being sent out to members today and will be online on the OxVox website today. I am sure Trevor will post them on here once members have received them.
As for value for money. OxVox does have costs and I think £5 per year on a 3 year deal is cheap and I am surprised if people find that as expensive. I do not feel we are exclusive as I am an east stand regular and Tim, Trevor and Chris are from the prawn sandwich brigade!! But I am keen for us to grow our membership and that's why we tried the £2 trial membership scheme. I would be glad to hear people views on pricing etc so will keep reading this thread with interest.
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Post by Millman on Jan 10, 2011 13:54:37 GMT
Clubs get into trouble every day, and we want to keep an eye on things as best we can, and ask the awkward questions when they need asking. I reckon that should be an important part of our role. If doing these kinds of things is seen as worthwhile, people will probably join. This is a good discussion and I know have had more than my say, but if I may I would like to raise a different point regarding the above comment. Just over a year ago the club nearly folded or at least faced administration, yet as fans none of us knew anything about it (let alone being asked to help or a chance to fight for the club). Given this do we think Oxvox should be more vocal and a little more forceful? What the original purpose of this thread highlights is the really poor level of communication the club's owners have with the fans. Also the lack of involvement the fans have with the running of the club. Should more effort be made to get us involved? I too eagerly await some information from IL as I like many others are far from convinced of the medium to long term plans for the future of the club.
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Post by Brahma Bull on Jan 10, 2011 14:19:21 GMT
Millman you should look forward to reading the notes in full! . What I mean by that cryptic message is that one of your points about fan involvment was a key discussion point.
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Post by headingtontrev on Jan 10, 2011 14:41:15 GMT
Clubs get into trouble every day, and we want to keep an eye on things as best we can, and ask the awkward questions when they need asking. I reckon that should be an important part of our role. If doing these kinds of things is seen as worthwhile, people will probably join. This is a good discussion and I know have had more than my say, but if I may I would like to raise a different point regarding the above comment. Just over a year ago the club nearly folded or at least faced administration, yet as fans none of us knew anything about it (let alone being asked to help or a chance to fight for the club). Given this do we think Oxvox should be more vocal and a little more forceful? What the original purpose of this thread highlights is the really poor level of communication the club's owners have with the fans. Also the lack of involvement the fans have with the running of the club. Should more effort be made to get us involved? I too eagerly await some information from IL as I like many others are far from convinced of the medium to long term plans for the future of the club. I won't disagree with your comment Millman about the need for OxVox to be more forceful on occasion. It isn't quite the case though that no-one had any hint of the financial problems besetting the club at the end of the Nick Merry era. IMHO it needed KT to get involved and to get a full handle on the detailed situation before progress could be made. But the notes of the meetings we held with the club in late 2008 make sombre reading now with the benefit of hindsight (see www.oxvox.org.uk/pageContent.aspx?id=24&pID=10 for the links), we as a trust asked many questions at the time, and it's clear things were worse then than was readily apparent. I think a lesson has been learned in terms of being more watchful in future.
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Post by Oxford Yankee on Jan 10, 2011 14:56:12 GMT
Minutes are out.
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Post by headingtontrev on Jan 10, 2011 14:57:46 GMT
Go to the OxVox site and read the top news story, or the direct link is oxvox.org.uk/PageContent.aspx?id=116Minutes have been emailed direct to all trust members - out of our control how long the emails take to come through, but some members have managed to open them already.
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Post by slappy on Jan 11, 2011 9:29:16 GMT
They must need editing to create the right impression?? You can predict what they will say 1) You cant judge the lack of youth team players that have come through as we awere in the conference without funding - allowing another 5 years before judgement. 2) I dont want or nee to sell the club an my sons are fully committed so it would take a silly offer to tempt me to sell circa £5 million plus. 3) We can get promoted within 2 years be a championship team in 5 years but there are no guarantees. 4) We will buy the stadium within the next 2 years no concrete details or plans will be supplied because they have not seriously progressed it other than working out they could get a bank loan. 5) The club wont be happy with the IL thread and will advise that it is all scare mongering and factually incorrect 6) They have received no concrete offers for the club and no suprise if £5million is the asking price as it isnt even worth half that! 7) THe club will receive no more investment from IL for whatever reason - likely reason anything from no spare funds to club should be self sufficient. You can write the script guys we dont need the notes its all predictable. The club is mid table doing o.k. gates are good, there is a lack of funds to back any serious ambition and we have a club that may make slow progress as our budgets wont compete in league 1 are average for league 2 which will not allow us to compete so we will need an unbelievable astute manager on a low budget with a super marketing team to maximise the club revenue to get us where we want to be - the championship! Likely??? Have wean owner giving us a true picture??? The notes on the ground and his comments regarding the IL thread will tell us!! Q1, 2,3,4 and 6 Very prescient. Almost as if you knew what was asked and what the answers were. Was there a mole at the meeting?
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Raggles
Full Member
Is Everything Rosie?
Posts: 112
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Post by Raggles on Jan 11, 2011 23:12:14 GMT
The offers bit interests me.....and I quote.....
"No written offers had been received for the Club, reported IL; verbal interest had been expressed in the Club on a number of occasions, including a verbal offer for a part investment (which never materialised into a written offer); ‘approaches’ was a better description than offers. IL repeated his ambition for the Club; he is very committed and had no plans to sell at (or below) the value of his current investment in the Club"
So we have a very committed owner, who still has ambition, who doesn't attend many football games and values his football club i.r.o £5m+. Could someone explain how he values his business at £5m?
It's just in my opinion I see a business which does not own its ground/premises, a business which has maybe two or three assets (four if you include the manager) of which third parties may have paid for, a youth system that hasn't produced anything substantial for nearly a decade and a business which made a stonking profit last year in the face of years of losses.
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Post by scoob on Jan 12, 2011 9:02:36 GMT
Raggles I think you have forgotten that WPL have only invested £3.3M in the club (at 30 Sept 2009) so I guess that is the minimum amount that IL is talking about.
It's impossible to work out a valuation for the club but on the pitch we are in a slightly stronger position than when IL took over and crowds are well over 50% up. OUFC is also in a better state financially and attendance wise than many other clubs. The real uncertainty was whether it was worth the £2M that WPL originally paid.
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Post by oufc1975 on Jan 12, 2011 13:01:01 GMT
Scoob. That is key to any future sale IMO because IL wants that back, but he massively overpaid for it. Kassam could not believe anyone paid him anything for it! Sources inside the club at the time advised the owners it was too much but they ploughed on regardless such was the desire toown the club. who though in their right mind would part with the sort of cash discussed. the £3 million IL is out is mainly due to overpaying for the club and then running it badly via NMerry at the start. It is now being run better but what you are asking is for someone to re-imburse IL for his mistakes which is very unlikely so I would say it is a good job he doesnt want to sell because I dont think there would be any takers.
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Post by scoob on Jan 12, 2011 14:24:35 GMT
I agree OUFC1975 but what people are prepared to pay for football clubs does not follow logic. I guess we have to hope that KT continues to run the club well for IL and that if the stadium plans come to fruition he does not pay too much for that and that it can then benefit the club rather than become a further drain on resources.
It is interesting that there has been less comment on the minutes of the meeting than there was on the delays but most of what is in those minutes most of us already knew.
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Post by slappy on Jan 12, 2011 14:39:39 GMT
The problem with saying it is not worth £5MM is that is supposedly the value, or more realistically the minimum asking price for IL to get his money back plus time and interest. Other club owners walk away and write off their debts, but only because their club needs more cash which they haven't got, and new owners don't normally take on previous owners debt. IL doesn't need to walk away, so doesn't need to lower his valuation of the club.
(I am of course assuming that £5MM includes repaying WPL, not £5MM + repay WPL).
I wonder if there were other questions asked at the meeting which weren't answered. I wanted to know who the other WPL debt was, and whether that was being repaid. Also if there might ever be more cash investment other than the stadium.
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Post by SuperOx on Jan 12, 2011 15:01:37 GMT
It is interesting that there has been less comment on the minutes of the meeting than there was on the delays but most of what is in those minutes most of us already knew. Agree Scoob - I'm surprised by the lack of comment/analysis too.
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Post by Potters Right Boot on Jan 12, 2011 15:07:03 GMT
Scoob. That is key to any future sale IMO because IL wants that back, but he massively overpaid for it. Kassam could not believe anyone paid him anything for it! Sources inside the club at the time advised the owners it was too much but they ploughed on regardless such was the desire toown the club. who though in their right mind would part with the sort of cash discussed. the £3 million IL is out is mainly due to overpaying for the club and then running it badly via NMerry at the start. It is now being run better but what you are asking is for someone to re-imburse IL for his mistakes which is very unlikely so I would say it is a good job he doesnt want to sell because I dont think there would be any takers. You can't apply normal business valuation principles to a football club though!! It is a crazy, crazy sector. Today I read my paper and see that just 3 prem sides made a profit last year. Yet everyone and his goldplated dog wants a piece of a well known football club, from Indian chicken farmers to Yank baseball club owners. Milan Mandaric just bought Sheff Wed for many millions when it was 3000% insolvent! True, we are sticking around in Div 4 at the moment but the club appears on an upward curve and has a decent shot in 5 years at getting to the Championship. Can you honestly say Oxfrod are any smaller a club than say Blackpool were 5 years ago ?
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Post by scoob on Jan 12, 2011 15:53:30 GMT
The problem with saying it is not worth £5MM is that is supposedly the value, or more realistically the minimum asking price for IL to get his money back plus time and interest. Other club owners walk away and write off their debts, but only because their club needs more cash which they haven't got, and new owners don't normally take on previous owners debt. IL doesn't need to walk away, so doesn't need to lower his valuation of the club. (I am of course assuming that £5MM includes repaying WPL, not £5MM + repay WPL). I wonder if there were other questions asked at the meeting which weren't answered. I wanted to know who the other WPL debt was, and whether that was being repaid. Also if there might ever be more cash investment other than the stadium. Slappy did you submit those questions to Oxvox? I asked a few questions which appeared to be answered although the wording was slightly different but one question to clarify a point made at the Fans Forum was not included. I was surprised at the lack of questions included in the minutes.
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Post by scoob on Jan 12, 2011 16:03:16 GMT
I can't see the point of getting too hung up about valutations when there are no offers on the table. What someone says they will sell the club for may be very different when the cash is laid out in front of them.
If I was IL I would probably consider the club worth more than I paid for it if I had put a lot of work in and bearing in mind the increase in crowds, slightly higher league position, decent Chief Exec (Chairman), decent Manager and the future potential of the club. Whether I would ever realise that valuation is another matter.
I feel that the fact that the stadium is separate from the club and the high price demanded by Kassam will have an indirect impact on the value of the club. Anyone wanting to really take the club forward will need both elements so will value the package as a whole.
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