|
Post by John Lennon on Jan 7, 2011 17:55:38 GMT
Then if you put it like that, every fan has the right. OxVox is a supporters trust, not a members only trust. OxVox represents its members so it is a members only trust but those members are part of the wider OUFC Community. As the committee and members freely give access to info is their choice so non-members get the info but it doesn't give you a right to it. Put another way, why do you think you have the 'right' to benefit from the work of OxVox for nothing when the members do contribute, at the least financially, so that the Trust can operate and work towards its objectives? Yes i do, as i put a lot of money into the club, and that in my opinion gives me the right. We all want the same thing, so why should non members be excluded? OxVox are a supporters trust, i am a supporter, and i pay to support my club
|
|
|
Post by Marked Ox on Jan 7, 2011 18:09:11 GMT
OxVox represents its members so it is a members only trust but those members are part of the wider OUFC Community. As the committee and members freely give access to info is their choice so non-members get the info but it doesn't give you a right to it. Put another way, why do you think you have the 'right' to benefit from the work of OxVox for nothing when the members do contribute, at the least financially, so that the Trust can operate and work towards its objectives? Yes i do, as i put a lot of money into the club, and that in my opinion gives me the right. We all want the same thing, so why should non members be excluded? OxVox are a supporters trust, i am a supporter, and i pay to support my club You don't put anything into OxVox though, so how does OxVox fund itself so that you can benefit from its work? OxVox and Oxford United are not the same thing. Why should non-members of OxVox be included and benefit when they don't contribute financially or through the giving of time to help OxVox to do its work? Would you expect a taxi to drive you around for free?
|
|
browny
Junior Member
Posts: 73
|
Post by browny on Jan 7, 2011 20:31:18 GMT
Lets see Oxvox as a voice of the clubs supporters not the 100 or so who have paid their tenner
It really annoys me when a 'supporters' trust starts acting that a exclusive club saying that unless you pay they are not telling you anything
Just an opinion
|
|
nerps
Full Member
Posts: 249
|
Post by nerps on Jan 7, 2011 20:38:06 GMT
John Lennon is of course correct - he does, and all season ticket holders and all paying fans do have the right to get the information he/they are seeking, all he/they have to do is write a letter, send an e-mail or phone the owner !!! What he doesn't have 'a right to' is to expect the OxVox Committee to get it for him. I would have thought it blatantly obvious that this is the case. Of course OxVox do care for all of the fans and as always will pass on the information to all, members or not; however this is because they want to and not because non-members demand or complain about it. Perhaps a stop off at the newsagents for a free newspaper on the way home in the taxi would be useful, before sitting and watching the live match on Sky, to which of course you havn't signed up !!
|
|
nerps
Full Member
Posts: 249
|
Post by nerps on Jan 7, 2011 20:41:41 GMT
Browny I would be very interested if you could post where you have seen anything from OxVox stating what you have just posted. Somehow I don't think you will be able to !! I wonder how much, if anything at all you really know about OxVox, I take it for granted you are not a member.
|
|
Raggles
Full Member
Is Everything Rosie?
Posts: 112
|
Post by Raggles on Jan 7, 2011 23:12:53 GMT
As much as I hate to say it, I agree with Marked Ox in relation to his points directed to Mr Lennon. No one is denying you a right to ask questions or seek answers but don't get confused that the Supporters Trust are there to do it for you.
I am rather surprised with your thought process John and it's a shame to see 'Browny' making a stupid remark claiming that the Supporters Trust act as an exclusive club. The question I would throw at you is why can't you be arsed to sign up to 'your' supporters trust?
I know a few people in that group and some of them should stick up for themselves and tell a few home truths about some of the shit they get on message boards like this. Some of you are pretty ungrateful. Respect to them all for asking questions of our leader, they haven't been let down from what I have read, Lenagan has managed to do that all by himself. I want to see these minutes and see what tosh has been wheeled out as much as the rest of you.
|
|
|
Post by Ricky Otto on Jan 8, 2011 10:34:01 GMT
Lets see Oxvox as a voice of the clubs supporters not the 100 or so who have paid their tenner It really annoys me when a 'supporters' trust starts acting that a exclusive club saying that unless you pay they are not telling you anything Just an opinion Id love to know how you've reached this conclusion? Any facts to back it up?
|
|
|
Post by YellowHoods on Jan 8, 2011 10:38:11 GMT
Utter ignorance from "browny". OxVox has a membership of around 500 who pay a subscription to keep the trust going. OxVox's work, however, benefits ALL Oxford fans. So I'm actually paying for something that helps you, browny, and you're bleating on about some mythical "exclusive club".
As someone said the other day, uninformed opinions are worth nothing.
|
|
Snake
Junior Member
Posts: 79
|
Post by Snake on Jan 8, 2011 21:53:41 GMT
Just for clarity, as someone who has commented on this thread, my frustration is with IL, not with Oxvox per se. However, I would be dissappointed if Oxvox allowed IL to edit their minutes too much, ending up with an inaccurate, or sanitised, view of the meeting. Appreciate your comment, ER. I can add if it needs saying that we've got no interest or intention in seeing notes of meetings sanitised, we want as full account an account as possible to be made available. Regarding the delay, the first days were ours (as the meeting was on Dec 13 evening and we took a not unreasonable 4 days to write up a version which all 8 OxVox attendees were happy with), since then I've been in touch twice with IL - on Dec 31, when he said they would take a few days, and today, to check on progress. He's just replied and confirmed he's been away and aims to review them tomorrow. So hopefully they will be out to trust members and up on our website at some point over the weekend, trip to Aldershot permitting. With the hols, the delay is IMHO fairly unremarkable in terms of working days; but since SuperOx has already alluded to a personal issue, if it had happened to me it would have displaced reviewing a set of meeting notes down my list of things to do. Yes and No in terms of agreeing with people on this thread, but it’s certainly a fact that IL speaks and communicates more with Wigan Warriors fans than he does to the people in Yellow and Blue here in Oxford so imho there is a bridge looming that may need crossing - and I get the distinct impression that OxVox are a tad impotent in this matter, mainly because their membership numbers are so small. I’ve always been an advocate of paying a pound for life membership of OxVox, so long as that quid entitles you only to online membership. i.e. no badge or welcome pack or free food at meetings and all the other paraphernalia that comes with the current membership benefits. i.e. all you get with that deal is electronic correspondence and to be able to take part in the excellent fans surveys that Trevor and Co. provide (and a copy of the results) and have a vote/say whenever the non-paid committee members decide to call an electronic referendum. It’s a simple and low cost option to our Supporters’ Organisation in terms of just adding email addresses to their list of regular and well organised mail shots. And if the email address you provided is bounced then tough luck, you have to pay another quid to get back in the information loop rather than OV doing the chasing. As for people who don’t have access to an internet account, then the rates should stay the same as they are now, and I think that’s fair.
|
|
|
Post by Millman on Jan 8, 2011 22:45:26 GMT
Fantastic idea snake. This is exactly what Oxvox should do.
I am an ex member of Oxvox. My main reason for not renewing is that as an exile it is difficult to see what Oxvox can do for me or I for them. I also sometimes find myself not 100 percent agreeing with the way it is run either (it does indeed come across sometimes as a little cliquey). But again being so far away I can do little to change things. The idea snake outlined above would suit us exiles better and offer much better value for money, and help combat my impression that Oxvox just doesn't try hard enough to help us exiles.
One last thing to any Oxvox committee members out there if someone leaves do not continually spam their email account bugging them to rejoin. Ask once or twice sure but if you get no response then please leave us alone. However if you decide to do the idea outlined by snake by all means let everyone know. Then indeed I will rejoin.
|
|
|
Post by scoob on Jan 8, 2011 23:00:58 GMT
Millman what do you want Oxvox to do for exiles and whom do you consider to be exiles?
|
|
browny
Junior Member
Posts: 73
|
Post by browny on Jan 8, 2011 23:16:17 GMT
Utter ignorance from "browny". OxVox has a membership of around 500 who pay a subscription to keep the trust going. OxVox's work, however, benefits ALL Oxford fans. So I'm actually paying for something that helps you, browny, and you're bleating on about some mythical "exclusive club". As someone said the other day, uninformed opinions are worth nothing. As I said just an opinion, whatever anyone may think an opinion is just that I am not a member and yes I have read a lot of the blurb on the Oxvox web site and personally cannot see the benefits that are being talked about As I said its an opinion that's all. There is nothing personal in what I say but for me, and maybe its just me I cannot see what Oxvox offers me
|
|
|
Post by Millman on Jan 9, 2011 0:28:34 GMT
Millman what do you want Oxvox to do to help exiles and whom do you consider to be exciles? May I take the easy part first. I would consider an exile anyone who lives a considerable distance from Oxford. To the extent that attending most home games is a difficulty either in time or money. I myself am a more extreme exile living as I do overseas. The fact is that it costs me around 200 quid to go to a single game (and that is not one in Oxford, but to the North of England). Now for the hard part what to do for the exile community. Local meetings of Oxvox are useless to us. As are local discounts. A discount at the club shop would be more than a welcome incentive. As would a reduced fee for those who can't attend meetings etc (as you suggested). The Oxvox website has been in recent times a lot better than previously and the email update are welcome even if many are relating to local activities. I would like to see effort made to seek the opiinons of the exiles. Proxy voting on organisation policy. A form on the forum to submit questions to be passed on the club (and review the questions already raised). Maybe some group provided help sheets for the grounds we visit (parking, train station locations. which pubs the fans are meeting up in, or indeed which have the best pints. Yes I know you can hunt for this stuff but trust me it sometimes is a struggle to get all the details. Plus it would be good to meet up with some of the Oxvox members when I get to come over (baring in mind its mostly to away games). There are just a few ideas of the top of my head. Not sure of the feasibility of them, and I sure there are many other ideas if other in Oxvox too put some thought into this. I would appreciate that people don't get bogged down on just these ideas. It is not my job to think them up for Oxvox or to demand Oxvox to implement them. I just would like Oxvox to put some time into considering the needs of the exile fan. It is a area of real opportunity for them, as bar the internet we are often information starved and keen to meet up with fellow fans when we can. For me currently Oxvox represents poor value for money and that is why I am no longer a member. If Oxvox changes I will happily reassess things but if it doesn't I certainly hold no hard feelings and would wish them the best with their organisation.
|
|
nerps
Full Member
Posts: 249
|
Post by nerps on Jan 9, 2011 9:55:47 GMT
Millman, I see your points and perhaps OxVox will take up some of them (I'm not committee so I don't know), however I have to pick up on what seems to be a major point from you, the fact that OxVox represents poor value for money. The membership fee isn't an entry into a lottery or raffle when you hope to get a prize or even a means to obtain discounts; the fee is money needed to cover the basic costs of running the trust, there are many expences - not least the use of the website. Additionally how would the costs of providing the help sheets you suggest be covered, surely you don't expect the committee members to cough up for everything. I am a semi-exile, living app 50 miles from the stadium, but I don't feel I am getting an inferior service from OxVox in comparison with those living locally, and a demand for a reduced fee would give a new meaning to the phrase 'penny pinching'.
|
|
|
Post by Millman on Jan 10, 2011 8:54:27 GMT
Actually nerps I said that Oxvox offers poor value for money for me. I get a few emails and access to the publicly website, not worth the cost in my book.
What I get do get can all be done at a negligible cost, except time. Yet I pay the same as those who can attend meetings, etc. My cost to the organisation is almost nil yet I pay the same as those who can get to meetings etc which do cost the organisation money. Oxvox would do well to consider an idea like scoobs of a minimal cost lifetime members who can receive the emails and read the website only. The website should not cost a lot to administer (as a webmaster of two of my own sites I know this). Mostly what it takes is time. Same for the fact sheets they can be produced by other members and placed on the website again almost zero cost to the organisation.
As I have said previously this is my own opinion and I am not going to argue with you about it. You obviously feel differently about how much value for money Oxvox offers you and I respect that.
|
|
|
Post by paulayres on Jan 10, 2011 9:00:20 GMT
Make the membership fee £1 across the board and free to season ticket holders. You would have a membership of 4000+ just taking into account the season ticket holders. It depends how you want Oxvox to be seen, an exclusive club or a trust with 1000s of members.
Which would have more clout???
|
|
|
Post by oufc1975 on Jan 10, 2011 10:03:17 GMT
Any sign of the minutes. What I dont understand and I am not knocking Oxvox at all, but if Oxvox have sent their version of minutes and there were 9 of them present surely it just takes IL to ratify them which should in theory take 10 minutes of his time, unless someone is asking for them to be edited which devalues the minutes anyway. Surely once you have had a meeting Oxvox know what was said and between around 8-10 of them they have their version surely they should have been sent with a note saying. Here are the minutes we will publish them on January 1st if you disagree or want them adjusted let us know if not we will just publish? IL on the face of it must be amending the notes and trying to use some influence to do so and therefore the longer they take to produce the less valuable they appear.
It also creates an impression, already mentioned that the fans or OUFC or both are not a priority for IL as the feeling is if it was Wigan they would firstly have had a meeting before now and secondly been reported with more urgency.
Bad PR on behalf of the owners at best, adjusted minutes or heavily censored at worst!
|
|
|
Post by Eric Read on Jan 10, 2011 11:01:21 GMT
Any sign of the minutes. What I dont understand and I am not knocking Oxvox at all, but if Oxvox have sent their version of minutes and there were 9 of them present surely it just takes IL to ratify them which should in theory take 10 minutes of his time, unless someone is asking for them to be edited which devalues the minutes anyway. Surely once you have had a meeting Oxvox know what was said and between around 8-10 of them they have their version surely they should have been sent with a note saying. Here are the minutes we will publish them on January 1st if you disagree or want them adjusted let us know if not we will just publish? IL on the face of it must be amending the notes and trying to use some influence to do so and therefore the longer they take to produce the less valuable they appear. It also creates an impression, already mentioned that the fans or OUFC or both are not a priority for IL as the feeling is if it was Wigan they would firstly have had a meeting before now and secondly been reported with more urgency. Bad PR on behalf of the owners at best, adjusted minutes or heavily censored at worst! Spot on post. Agree with every word of it.
|
|
|
Post by ZeroTheHero on Jan 10, 2011 11:08:29 GMT
Re - Oxvox value for money.
I'm a member of Oxvox (just an ordinary member, not on the committee or anything) and an exile. I don't really expect 'value for money' as such. I support Oxvox because it is the ONLY organised body that tries to represent the views of the supporters to the club. Now I accept that there are almost as many views as there are supporters, so they are never going to be able to put them all to everyone's satisfaction.
But let's take these minutes for example. I seem to remember that views on what the questions to put to IL were canvassed for on here, by members and non members. Presumably some (at least) of them were asked. We will eventually get at least some sort of answer. My subs to Oxvox helped to finance the travel costs that the attendees incurred in travelling to the meeting. I'm happy with that. Why should they have to pay themselves? I can't even remember what I paid for my two year subscription to OV - but it was less than the cost of one away ticket, and certainly a lot less than the cost of petrol that I have to pay to go to every match.
If there was no Oxvox (or equivalent) who would have even managed to get a meeting with IL? I'd suggest none of us.
There are also a couple of other things. Saying OV is cliquey is wide of the mark IMO. Of course many of the people know each other well - they've been fans and OV members for years. I don't really know anyone in the organisation apart from to nod at when I see them at games (they are probably wondering who the hell I am!). Also, people saying they won't join because there aren't enough people to make is representative is a self-fulfilling prophesy!
Sorry to rattle on, but it seems to me that the people who spend their own time and (I suspect) money in helping to run Oxvox with entirely the right motivations often get the rough end of the stick on here for no good reason. IL might be late returning his version of the minutes, but that is HIS fault not Oxvox's!!!
|
|
|
Post by headingtontrev on Jan 10, 2011 11:18:21 GMT
Sorry this is a bit rambling, it's written in haste. Good discussion; many of these points about low price/free membership have been aired around the trust committee and at meetings. We cut the membership fees last year to £15 for a 3 year membership for ages 26-59, and £7.50 for a 3 year membership for 18-25s and over 60s. See www.oxvox.org.uk/pageContent.aspx?id=7 FWIW these fees are half what they were when the trust was set up in 2002. It’s also a £1 single payment for anyone under 18. The cash that comes in means we can have a proper setup, meet the essential costs, and there is a little bit of money in reserve for a rainy day and to pay for such things as the date plaques along the face of SSU and to contribute a few quid now and then to groups like the Ultras. The committee's view has been that the membership fee is not a real barrier to fans joining, we think (rightly or wrongly, tell us!) the key reason people will join or not join is whether they think OxVox is of any use to them. But if cash is really a barrier, we need to look again. In terms of what the trust does, in recent years a few things stand out: the petition to the Conference to reinstate the 5 points, the 12th Man fund last year which OxVox played a large part in setting up, and the SSU boards which is intended as the first of a number of ideas to give our anonymous ground some OUFC identity (see www.oxvox.org.uk/pageContent.aspx?id=110 ). Aside from these kind of things, one of our key interests, I hope, is the long term future, security and success of the club. Clubs get into trouble every day, and we want to keep an eye on things as best we can, and ask the awkward questions when they need asking. I reckon that should be an important part of our role. If doing these kinds of things is seen as worthwhile, people will probably join. It’s true many trusts only attract mass memberships when there is perceived to be a crisis. There’s no reason though why we should wait for some huge crisis to be obvious before we recruit large numbers of members. We’ve doubled over the last two to three years, and there’s no reason why we shouldn’t do so again. With a big membership we could achieve more for the club. My personal view on the fees is we could charge a merely nominal fee and have a suggested donation on the membership form, which might bring in more members and who knows, might result in the same or greater 'takings'. But that’s for the committee and members to decide. E-membership reduces costs – which in the last couple of years has probably helped us keep going at a lower membership rate than we would otherwise have done. But it's not entirely cost-free. Worth mentioning at this point that we have set up a free e-list on our site – see www.oxvox.org.uk/news.aspx?id=107 to sign up – which we use to send occasional information emails. I didn't agree with one or two suggestions on this thread - the one about st holders getting free membership for example - I can't see why they should be favoured in that way. Also, it's important that each member has agreed to sign up - I'm against any mass 'signing up' of a group - whether they are season ticket holders or whoever - without each person agreeing to the aims of the trust. If you do that, being a member of an organisation becomes meaningless.
|
|