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Post by oufc1975 on Aug 4, 2010 21:05:49 GMT
Accept that Oxford Yankee, obviously I did not hear this from the forum, but is just a general topic for debate. I think there is one very serious point that the fans need to try to get a handle on, if possible.
The stadium is our last chance for the club to compete at Championship level or above, we would need the revenue and income from any deal to go to the club. Kassam took the revenue from sale of the manor ground. We also do not benefit from the revenue in the ozone complex or own the Holiday Inn. All of these thingws would have helped sustain the club at a higher level. The stadium is our last chance to get annual revenue outside of the football club to help fund the club.
One fact I do know is that if are potential new investors did a deal all revenue would go directly to the club as they are fans who do not need the revenue and are fans keen to help the club compete, we need to try and ensure that whoever does the deal the club benefits to the maximum and therefore rasing awareness round these isuues is vital.
If the deal is done to benefit people in the stadiun company, Woodstock partners or any other investors the club will lose out, this is in my mind the single most important long term issue, making sure OUFC get as much benefit from the stadium deal as possible is vital and on that basis I have tried to make people aware of a potential deal that would see this happen. These people would give guarantees to the football club and have full fan involvement surely that is worth sharing Oxford Yankee?
My only concern with WPL is that if they will not invest anymore money in the club, use their own money to buy the stadium then why are they hanging on if they have received other offers. Surely only for 1 of 2 reasons,. The ooffers were not serious or for enough or they are trying to make money out of the stadium deal as normal business practice is that once you have decided not to invest anymore in your asset and you then receive an offer you generally realise your investment? What are your views on that Oxford Yankee or do you think we should not really get too involved and just let its take its course? I realise practically other than people power we cant influence too much or can we?
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Post by Oxford Yankee on Aug 4, 2010 22:31:44 GMT
I am in total agreement re the stadium and the surrounding complex OUFC1975. Only a 'Jack Walker' type will do a deal like that; one that is entirely philanthropic and selfless and from what you and Eric have said it would seem that these supporters are of that type/mindset. A rare breed indeed. What I don't see as necessary is any fan input into a deal such as that. It's the dream ticket that we all want and one that would be accepted with almost universally open arms. No need for any of us to be involved; they do the deal, explain the deal and ownership structure and back that up with public domain information and everyone will be happy (for about 10 minutes ). The problem with doing business in public is it makes people do stupid things, particularly in a strange business like football. Supporters clamour for things to happen in incredibly swift timescales and bad decisions get made to appease the masses (think the deal structure that WPL agreed to with FK). Normally astute people seem to let their hearts rule their heads (think Robin Herd) and the only thing that consistently suffers is the football club they buy. They don't mean to harm it but it is probably something anyone of us would end up doing if we had the sort of money to do something like buy OUFC. People have a tendency to spoil the things they love the most. My advice to them would be to get round a table, in an utterly confidential manner, with WPL and seek either a partnership or an acquisition that they are, in the cold light of day, happy with. If that cannot be done then for their own sakes they should walk away until such a time that it can be done. WPL would some come to the table to do a deal once/if they realise that they have no solution to the stadium purchase. In the meantime I see no reason why OUFC should be run on a handouts basis. The excellent Kelvin Thomas has steadied the ship (although I know I won't be alone in being alarmed at the supposed shortfall for wages as recently as April) and we should run ourselves within our means. I still dream of the EuroMillions win when all this will go away. I have already explained to my wife that we'll split the money in half. I will spend my half on OUFC and when it is all gone I will live on her half. An example of equity in its purest form.
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Post by Marked Ox on Aug 5, 2010 13:40:15 GMT
I disagree. The final comment is in fact true. The reason for promotion sits with Chris Wilder and the fan who financed the Constable deal. IL has not put any money into the club for 18 months if this site is to be believed. By his own admission he will not finance the club anymore. The club is being financed by supporters who have invested large sums of money to ensure we had a great chance to get back into the FL. If it was left to IL then Chris Wilder would have had no real chance. So one person loaning some money to OUFC gets credit but somebody else loaning substantially more money to OUFC doesn't, very hypocritical! Your final comment is just an opinion, as I hope you're not trying to imply it is fact using the word true. Also, it is still ridiculous! ;D I do pass on my thanks though to the fans who loaned OUFC the £400k although not that my thanks mean much at all. But IL deserves his share of credit for the promotion along with the others. Owning the club isn't just about the money, look at the attitude to the club from others in the game and in the local community when Kassam owned it and compare it to how the club is viewed now. While many others deserve the vast majority of credit for that, IL deserves some for facilitating the changes at the club. IL has made many mistakes at OUFC but he has also done plenty of good things as well and ultimately he is risking £3m+ of his own cash.
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Post by Marked Ox on Aug 5, 2010 14:03:58 GMT
Can somebody answer the following as those claiming such still haven't:
A few have said IL is hanging on to OUFC to recoup vast profits from the regeneration of the Stadium after it is purchased. Where are these vast profits going to come from?
I can see a possible commercial development included in a 4th Stand, in the empty corners of the ground and, at a stretch, the back of the East Stand. These will all take further investment as well and the financial gains are likely to come in the longer term rather than an immediate payoff. Also, how quickly are such developments even likely to start considering the economic outlook? No other land is available as far as I can see so are there any other opportunities for vast profits?
Of course, the stadium deal also includes the Conference facilities/Company but while they seem underutilised from my limited viewpoint, is there the scope to to create significant profits from this source? If so, it would again require a longer term approach from IL. Of course, he could sell it on again but that wouldn't tally with his comments about uniting the club and stadium under the same banner, as well as being very difficult considering both the Conference facilities and the stadium are directly linked.
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Raggles
Full Member
Is Everything Rosie?
Posts: 112
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Post by Raggles on Aug 12, 2010 22:39:15 GMT
I am glad you can see a possible commercial development, I guess others can see a larger one. We also don't know what any deal could include.
As for the vast improvement in the club mentality which you suggest IL deserves his fair share of credit, do you really believe that? Kelvin Thomas, Chris Wilder and the day-to-day staff deserve that, not a man who has decided to stop investing in our football club*. In my opinion, massive thanks should go to people who are lending the club money.
*Investment ranges from pennies to pounds!
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Post by m on Aug 13, 2010 7:56:40 GMT
" massive thanks should go to people who are lending the club money."
You mean Lenegan presumably? How many million is he currently lending the club?
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Raggles
Full Member
Is Everything Rosie?
Posts: 112
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Post by Raggles on Aug 13, 2010 11:46:05 GMT
Do you think his initial investment of £2m was some kind of goodwill? Do you think the next £2m Merry spent plunging the club into huge debt was deserving of thanks? Granted he has spent, close to £4.5m-£5m, of which he will get a sizeable return if and when he sells.
No my comment is directed to those who are lending money since our owner decided he didn't want to anymore. I can understand to an extent undertaking cost-reductions but to for the club to rely on soft loans from third parties, to keep us going/moving forward, is deserving of appreciation.
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Post by Marked Ox on Aug 13, 2010 14:32:57 GMT
I am glad you can see a possible commercial development, I guess others can see a larger one. We also don't know what any deal could include. As for the vast improvement in the club mentality which you suggest IL deserves his fair share of credit, do you really believe that? Kelvin Thomas, Chris Wilder and the day-to-day staff deserve that, not a man who has decided to stop investing in our football club*. In my opinion, massive thanks should go to people who are lending the club money. *Investment ranges from pennies to pounds! The others investments are no different from IL's, it is a loan. So they have both lent money to get the club where it is today. It might not fit your point but it is fact they have both done exactly the same thing, lent OUFC money to operate. Furthermore, you can't pick the bad stuff and attribute a share of the blame to IL but then ignore giving IL any credit for the good stuff that has happened to the club. Otherwise your argument is just so selective of history that it renders your argument without any basis and therefore pointless. Where are these vast profits from the re-development of the stadium going to come from that keep getting stated as the reason why IL won't sell? As nobody seems to be able to say, yet they make these extravagant claims! I already said where I can see redevelopment opportunities but they will involve significant further investment and will likely provide a return over a period of time rather an instant return. Also, the deal has been mentioned in the past by WPL that includes the Stadium (+ area for the 4th Stand) and Conference facilities, it won't include any other part of the site. So can you enlighten me?
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Raggles
Full Member
Is Everything Rosie?
Posts: 112
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Post by Raggles on Aug 13, 2010 15:27:38 GMT
With respect, the other investment is different though. The external loans have kept the club going, it has addressed cash-flow and has been invested in the team, whilst it is claimed Mr L is not prepared too.
As for "vast profits", you used the word vast. I said a regenration deal would be profitable, so let's not try and be clever. The amusing thing is that a regeneration deal to you, is putting something under any 4th stand and building in the corners. You don't know what any deal may include, you're assuming it would be restrictive. Businessmen tend to think outside the box, Marked Ox.
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Post by m on Aug 13, 2010 15:41:51 GMT
"With respect, the other investment is different though. The external loans have kept the club going, it has addressed cash-flow and has been invested in the team, whilst it is claimed Mr L is not prepared too."
Where did IL's money go if it didn't address cash flow? Where did Nick Merry spunk the money if it wasn't on the team?
You are making a distinction which simply isn't there! (As MarkedOx pointed out so eloquently)
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Post by Marked Ox on Aug 13, 2010 16:13:45 GMT
With respect, the other investment is different though. The external loans have kept the club going, it has addressed cash-flow and has been invested in the team, whilst it is claimed Mr L is not prepared too. As for "vast profits", you used the word vast. I said a regenration deal would be profitable, so let's not try and be clever. The amusing thing is that a regeneration deal to you, is putting something under any 4th stand and building in the corners. You don't know what any deal may include, you're assuming it would be restrictive. Businessmen tend to think outside the box, Marked Ox. I never said you did use the word vast but others with a similar/same argument to your own have used that word or something meaning the same. I just want an answer where these considerable (as others have claimed) profits are coming from as it has been put forward as a reason for IL not selling. The amusing thing is where else are they going to build? On the pitch, on a flotation device above the ground? The rest is car park and isn't part of the deal (although the club will have access to the parking spaces for games I would highly suspect) and it certainly won't include the rest of the Ozone development unless considerable more money (many tens of £millions considering it is Kassam) is spent on top of the current agreed price. That's quite something to think outside the box and produce undeveloped land from thin air! As I've already pointed out, and as m has also, the other investment isn't different, it is exactly the same thing. It appears you just want it to be different but it simply isn't.
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Post by Eric Read on Aug 13, 2010 18:05:02 GMT
There's one massive distinction.
Ian Lenegan put money into something he owned, as a potential investment, whereas these people were prepared to put money into something they didn't own, just to keep it afloat. I think that is deserving of the greater amount of credit, as the only possible return they can get is if they get their money back. They have no security at all.
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Post by m on Aug 14, 2010 8:32:16 GMT
There's one massive distinction. Ian Lenegan put money into something he owned, as a potential investment, whereas these people were prepared to put money into something they didn't own, just to keep it afloat. I think that is deserving of the greater amount of credit, as the only possible return they can get is if they get their money back. They have no security at all. A fair point - although I wouldn't say that Lenegans security is necessarily that 'secure'! To be clear, my point is not in any way to diminish or demean the actions of those who supported the club last season. Far from it! These people deserve all of our thanks and gratitude.I just feel that some people are making slightly light of Lenegans contribution to the club so far. Although his motives are probably not entirely altruistic I don't think it is fair to accuse him of being in it solely for financial gain.
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Post by slappy on Aug 15, 2010 12:28:23 GMT
From last week's Football League Paper - Jim Smith interview Now an honorary director, Smith believes Wilder - along with U's chairman Kelvin Thomas - rescued the club from oblivion.
"Chris has done a super job and he's saved the club to be honest", said Smith. "We'd have been in serious trouble financially if we'd had another year in the Conference
"We don't own the ground so we have to pay rent. And that restricts our revenue so we have to rely on backers. When we were flying in the league, everyone wanted to come on board. Then we had a little dip and they all thought 'actually, let's just see how they do'. Now, they're all back in again.
"Kelvin must take a lot of credit for that. There were times when it was really touch and go - I mean weeks from administration. But he raised money, got people in and it looks as though we're coming out of the woods financially."
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Post by scoob on Aug 16, 2010 10:55:47 GMT
An interesting thread that I have just caught up on following return from holiday.
The original question is hard to answer. I think the jury is still out on whether Lenagan is a good owner of OUFC. I feel that he has done the right thing by not increasing his loans to the club and controlling spending to the point that the club stands on it own feet. I wish he had done this early on, or at least stuck to his pledge that he would "invest" £250k per season rather than trebbling that amount and allowing Merry to lose control of the finances.
I feel that there have been many mistakes made but since Merry has left the situation has changed radically. There has definitely been some luck involved in the last couple of years but lenagan has made the decision that have helped to turn the club around. That said it would be very easy, if the team underperform, to return to a loss making situation.
It seems that there may be fans who could afford to invest £15M+ in the club to fund the stadium purchase and development but I wonder if they really have the desire to risk that amount of cash and achieve a sound future for the club. If they can and have the skills to push it through then that would be the ideal solution. However,there plenty of people who have made money in one field but then lose it when they branch out into an area that they do not fully understand. It is very easy to make promises when propping up the counter in a bar with your mates but another matter when the chips are down.
Also it is very easy to say that Lenagan has only invested £3M and has now pulled the plug but his family has also invested significant unpaid time in the club so I can understand how they would want to see a return on this investment.
I really do not see that it will be easy to create additional income streams for the football club by purchasing and redeveloping the stadium area. There is a limited amount of land available compared to what Kassam was able to work with. If Kassam sells other parts of his portfolio then he will require a market rate which will allow for only relatively small returns to the club. Of course the capital cost is the most significant element so if someone can provide cash at nil or low rate of interest then this will make the whole development far more viable.
My main concern is that if someone does take over the club that they have the skills to run the club and associated development in an effective manner because once the stadium is purchased it would be very easy to run at a massive loss but much harder to run the club on a break even or profitable basis.
Kassam found it impossible to run the club on a profitable basis and to move the club forward. He currently owns the ground and, if he thought that he could make significant gains by developing the stadium further then I am sure that he would have done it by now.
In summary I would like to know much more about any potential new owners before making any sort of jusdgement but I doubt that we will get to know much until after the event.
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Post by extension207 on Aug 16, 2010 11:21:40 GMT
Who were the original "gang of four" who tried to buy the club from Kassam, in spring 1999?
Jim Rosenthal, David Bower, Hamish Dewar and one other?... Are any of these names linked to the rumours in this thread? I know one of them was very friendly with a certain Mr Branson, so does that help explain the Virgin Atlantic link and why Jim Rosenthal was appointed to the board this summer. Is he the representative of the mystery "donor"?!
Anyone remember, or have any knowledge here?
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Post by Londonroader on Aug 16, 2010 11:34:09 GMT
Who were the original "gang of four" who tried to buy the club from Kassam, in spring 1999? Jim Rosenthal, David Bower, Hamish Dewar and one other?... Are any of these names linked to the rumours in this thread? I know one of them was very friendly with a certain Mr Branson, so does that help explain the Virgin Atlantic link and why Jim Rosenthal was appointed to the board this summer. Is he the representative of the mystery "donor"?! Anyone remember, or have any knowledge here? I would think not!
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Post by Londonroader on Aug 16, 2010 11:39:52 GMT
An interesting thread that I have just caught up on following return from holiday. The original question is hard to answer. I think the jury is still out on whether Lenagan is a good owner of OUFC. I feel that he has done the right thing by not increasing his loans to the club and controlling spending to the point that the club stands on it own feet. I wish he had done this early on, or at least stuck to his pledge that he would "invest" £250k per season rather than trebbling that amount and allowing Merry to lose control of the finances. I feel that there have been many mistakes made but since Merry has left the situation has changed radically. There has definitely been some luck involved in the last couple of years but lenagan has made the decision that have helped to turn the club around. That said it would be very easy, if the team underperform, to return to a loss making situation. It seems that there may be fans who could afford to invest £15M+ in the club to fund the stadium purchase and development but I wonder if they really have the desire to risk that amount of cash and achieve a sound future for the club. If they can and have the skills to push it through then that would be the ideal solution. However,there plenty of people who have made money in one field but then lose it when they branch out into an area that they do not fully understand. It is very easy to make promises when propping up the counter in a bar with your mates but another matter when the chips are down. Also it is very easy to say that Lenagan has only invested £3M and has now pulled the plug but his family has also invested significant unpaid time in the club so I can understand how they would want to see a return on this investment. I really do not see that it will be easy to create additional income streams for the football club by purchasing and redeveloping the stadium area. There is a limited amount of land available compared to what Kassam was able to work with. If Kassam sells other parts of his portfolio then he will require a market rate which will allow for only relatively small returns to the club. Of course the capital cost is the most significant element so if someone can provide cash at nil or low rate of interest then this will make the whole development far more viable. My main concern is that if someone does take over the club that they have the skills to run the club and associated development in an effective manner because once the stadium is purchased it would be very easy to run at a massive loss but much harder to run the club on a break even or profitable basis. Kassam found it impossible to run the club on a profitable basis and to move the club forward. He currently owns the ground and, if he thought that he could make significant gains by developing the stadium further then I am sure that he would have done it by now. In summary I would like to know much more about any potential new owners before making any sort of jusdgement but I doubt that we will get to know much until after the event. Strange, it looks like you have made the wrong judgement already!!!
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Post by scoob on Aug 16, 2010 12:07:44 GMT
An interesting thread that I have just caught up on following return from holiday. The original question is hard to answer. I think the jury is still out on whether Lenagan is a good owner of OUFC. I feel that he has done the right thing by not increasing his loans to the club and controlling spending to the point that the club stands on it own feet. I wish he had done this early on, or at least stuck to his pledge that he would "invest" £250k per season rather than trebbling that amount and allowing Merry to lose control of the finances. I feel that there have been many mistakes made but since Merry has left the situation has changed radically. There has definitely been some luck involved in the last couple of years but lenagan has made the decision that have helped to turn the club around. That said it would be very easy, if the team underperform, to return to a loss making situation. It seems that there may be fans who could afford to invest £15M+ in the club to fund the stadium purchase and development but I wonder if they really have the desire to risk that amount of cash and achieve a sound future for the club. If they can and have the skills to push it through then that would be the ideal solution. However,there plenty of people who have made money in one field but then lose it when they branch out into an area that they do not fully understand. It is very easy to make promises when propping up the counter in a bar with your mates but another matter when the chips are down. Also it is very easy to say that Lenagan has only invested £3M and has now pulled the plug but his family has also invested significant unpaid time in the club so I can understand how they would want to see a return on this investment. I really do not see that it will be easy to create additional income streams for the football club by purchasing and redeveloping the stadium area. There is a limited amount of land available compared to what Kassam was able to work with. If Kassam sells other parts of his portfolio then he will require a market rate which will allow for only relatively small returns to the club. Of course the capital cost is the most significant element so if someone can provide cash at nil or low rate of interest then this will make the whole development far more viable. My main concern is that if someone does take over the club that they have the skills to run the club and associated development in an effective manner because once the stadium is purchased it would be very easy to run at a massive loss but much harder to run the club on a break even or profitable basis. Kassam found it impossible to run the club on a profitable basis and to move the club forward. He currently owns the ground and, if he thought that he could make significant gains by developing the stadium further then I am sure that he would have done it by now. In summary I would like to know much more about any potential new owners before making any sort of jusdgement but I doubt that we will get to know much until after the event. Strange, it looks like you have made the wrong judgement already!!! Really? Tell me more!
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Post by Londonroader on Aug 16, 2010 12:40:40 GMT
Strange, it looks like you have made the wrong judgement already!!! Really? Tell me more! Ok, what pub bar is this being discussed over then?
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