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Post by extension207 on Aug 16, 2010 12:50:35 GMT
Who were the original "gang of four" who tried to buy the club from Kassam, in spring 1999? Jim Rosenthal, David Bower, Hamish Dewar and one other?... Are any of these names linked to the rumours in this thread? I know one of them was very friendly with a certain Mr Branson, so does that help explain the Virgin Atlantic link and why Jim Rosenthal was appointed to the board this summer. Is he the representative of the mystery "donor"?! Anyone remember, or have any knowledge here? I would think not! Sorry, a bit lazy I know, but I hadn't read the full thread before posting here, so apologies if that has been covered already! What about any Virgin tie in?
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Post by SuperOx on Aug 16, 2010 13:34:04 GMT
Who were the original "gang of four" who tried to buy the club from Kassam, in spring 1999? Jim Rosenthal, David Bower, Hamish Dewar and one other?... Are any of these names linked to the rumours in this thread? I know one of them was very friendly with a certain Mr Branson, so does that help explain the Virgin Atlantic link and why Jim Rosenthal was appointed to the board this summer. Is he the representative of the mystery "donor"?! Anyone remember, or have any knowledge here? Was the other gang of four member George Bailey ? I think he was Hamish Dewar's business partner at the time.
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Post by Eric Read on Aug 16, 2010 14:14:43 GMT
An interesting thread that I have just caught up on following return from holiday. The original question is hard to answer. I think the jury is still out on whether Lenagan is a good owner of OUFC. I feel that he has done the right thing by not increasing his loans to the club and controlling spending to the point that the club stands on it own feet. I wish he had done this early on, or at least stuck to his pledge that he would "invest" £250k per season rather than trebbling that amount and allowing Merry to lose control of the finances. I feel that there have been many mistakes made but since Merry has left the situation has changed radically. There has definitely been some luck involved in the last couple of years but lenagan has made the decision that have helped to turn the club around. That said it would be very easy, if the team underperform, to return to a loss making situation. It seems that there may be fans who could afford to invest £15M+ in the club to fund the stadium purchase and development but I wonder if they really have the desire to risk that amount of cash and achieve a sound future for the club. If they can and have the skills to push it through then that would be the ideal solution. However,there plenty of people who have made money in one field but then lose it when they branch out into an area that they do not fully understand. It is very easy to make promises when propping up the counter in a bar with your mates but another matter when the chips are down.Also it is very easy to say that Lenagan has only invested £3M and has now pulled the plug but his family has also invested significant unpaid time in the club so I can understand how they would want to see a return on this investment. I really do not see that it will be easy to create additional income streams for the football club by purchasing and redeveloping the stadium area. There is a limited amount of land available compared to what Kassam was able to work with. If Kassam sells other parts of his portfolio then he will require a market rate which will allow for only relatively small returns to the club. Of course the capital cost is the most significant element so if someone can provide cash at nil or low rate of interest then this will make the whole development far more viable. My main concern is that if someone does take over the club that they have the skills to run the club and associated development in an effective manner because once the stadium is purchased it would be very easy to run at a massive loss but much harder to run the club on a break even or profitable basis. Kassam found it impossible to run the club on a profitable basis and to move the club forward. He currently owns the ground and, if he thought that he could make significant gains by developing the stadium further then I am sure that he would have done it by now. In summary I would like to know much more about any potential new owners before making any sort of jusdgement but I doubt that we will get to know much until after the event. Ah, the return of Ian Lenegan's favourite poster! I think that's a pretty dis-respectful comment to make about these people, given that you admit you don't know anything about them. Or is it an attempt at character assassination?Kassam wasn't interested in taking the club forward though, was he? But he did manage to run it profitably, and on lower attendances than at present. Just because we have had one owner who was only in it for his own gain (kassam, in case you can't work it out) and one owner who had a Walter Mitty like partner who spunked all the cash, while he looked the other way (Lenegan and Merry in case you can't work that one out either) It does not mean that every and any owner will automatically fall into the same catagory or catagories.And I agree with Londonroader here, you seem to have already made a judgement!
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Post by extension207 on Aug 16, 2010 14:25:45 GMT
Who were the original "gang of four" who tried to buy the club from Kassam, in spring 1999? Jim Rosenthal, David Bower, Hamish Dewar and one other?... Are any of these names linked to the rumours in this thread? I know one of them was very friendly with a certain Mr Branson, so does that help explain the Virgin Atlantic link and why Jim Rosenthal was appointed to the board this summer. Is he the representative of the mystery "donor"?! Anyone remember, or have any knowledge here? Was the other gang of four member George Bailey ? I think he was Hamish Dewar's business partner at the time. That was it, thanks. Anyone know what these guys are up to these days?
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Post by scoob on Aug 16, 2010 15:47:29 GMT
An interesting thread that I have just caught up on following return from holiday. The original question is hard to answer. I think the jury is still out on whether Lenagan is a good owner of OUFC. I feel that he has done the right thing by not increasing his loans to the club and controlling spending to the point that the club stands on it own feet. I wish he had done this early on, or at least stuck to his pledge that he would "invest" £250k per season rather than trebbling that amount and allowing Merry to lose control of the finances. I feel that there have been many mistakes made but since Merry has left the situation has changed radically. There has definitely been some luck involved in the last couple of years but lenagan has made the decision that have helped to turn the club around. That said it would be very easy, if the team underperform, to return to a loss making situation. It seems that there may be fans who could afford to invest £15M+ in the club to fund the stadium purchase and development but I wonder if they really have the desire to risk that amount of cash and achieve a sound future for the club. If they can and have the skills to push it through then that would be the ideal solution. However,there plenty of people who have made money in one field but then lose it when they branch out into an area that they do not fully understand. It is very easy to make promises when propping up the counter in a bar with your mates but another matter when the chips are down.Also it is very easy to say that Lenagan has only invested £3M and has now pulled the plug but his family has also invested significant unpaid time in the club so I can understand how they would want to see a return on this investment. I really do not see that it will be easy to create additional income streams for the football club by purchasing and redeveloping the stadium area. There is a limited amount of land available compared to what Kassam was able to work with. If Kassam sells other parts of his portfolio then he will require a market rate which will allow for only relatively small returns to the club. Of course the capital cost is the most significant element so if someone can provide cash at nil or low rate of interest then this will make the whole development far more viable. My main concern is that if someone does take over the club that they have the skills to run the club and associated development in an effective manner because once the stadium is purchased it would be very easy to run at a massive loss but much harder to run the club on a break even or profitable basis. Kassam found it impossible to run the club on a profitable basis and to move the club forward. He currently owns the ground and, if he thought that he could make significant gains by developing the stadium further then I am sure that he would have done it by now. In summary I would like to know much more about any potential new owners before making any sort of jusdgement but I doubt that we will get to know much until after the event. Ah, the return of Ian Lenegan's favourite poster! I think that's a pretty dis-respectful comment to make about these people, given that you admit you don't know anything about them. Or is it an attempt at character assassination?Kassam wasn't interested in taking the club forward though, was he? But he did manage to run it profitably, and on lower attendances than at present. Just because we have had one owner who was only in it for his own gain (kassam, in case you can't work it out) and one owner who had a Walter Mitty like partner who spunked all the cash, while he looked the other way (Lenegan and Merry in case you can't work that one out either) It does not mean that every and any owner will automatically fall into the same catagory or catagories.And I agree with Londonroader here, you seem to have already made a judgement! Eric I have made no comments about anyone specific so how can that comment be disrespectful?. I was actually talking in general not aiming those comments at anyone in particular. There are plenty of people who seem to think that they or their friends would be capable of running the club, the conference centre, the development and the associated businesses. History has shown us that it is not simply a matter of having the money available for the short term but there is a need for long term ability. I am just suggesting that it is a different matter for someone to say that their friends/contacts would do a better job when they are in no position to prove it. I know absolutely nothing about these people and very little about Lenagan. I do not care about the personalities but just having a nice big pot of cash and being devoted fans is not enough to convince me that someone would do a better job than Kassam or Lenagan. I would love to see fans with a real passion for the club take over provided that they really do have all of the atributes needed for the job. It is very easy for people to make comments on here giving minimal information. If you want respect then it is not unreasonable to show some to the current owner and I have seen little of that on this thread. In the past 25 years the club had been either run by sugar daddies with loads of cash but little heart for the club (eg Maxwell and Kassam) or well meaning fans who have let their heart rule their head (eg Herd). Before that I believe that it was owned by fans who almost bankrupted the club. Lenagan may be closer to the sugar daddies and has made a number of mistakes but at least he has restored some heart to the club. Even Kassam had to sell players to make a profit but as the club slipped down the league he had sold all of those assetts. He virtually destroyed the youth development scheme that created some of those assetts. If he had retained ownership of the club he would have struggled to maintain the club on a profitable basis especially in the conference. I know this will not happen but I would like Oxvox, as the only official fans organisation associated with the club, to carry out an assessment before the club is taken over.
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Post by Londonroader on Aug 16, 2010 16:54:00 GMT
Ah, the return of Ian Lenegan's favourite poster! I think that's a pretty dis-respectful comment to make about these people, given that you admit you don't know anything about them. Or is it an attempt at character assassination?Kassam wasn't interested in taking the club forward though, was he? But he did manage to run it profitably, and on lower attendances than at present. Just because we have had one owner who was only in it for his own gain (kassam, in case you can't work it out) and one owner who had a Walter Mitty like partner who spunked all the cash, while he looked the other way (Lenegan and Merry in case you can't work that one out either) It does not mean that every and any owner will automatically fall into the same catagory or catagories.And I agree with Londonroader here, you seem to have already made a judgement! Eric I have made no comments about anyone specific so how can that comment be disrespectful?. I was actually talking in general not aiming those comments at anyone in particular. There are plenty of people who seem to think that they or their friends would be capable of running the club, the conference centre, the development and the associated businesses. History has shown us that it is not simply a matter of having the money available for the short term but there is a need for long term ability. I am just suggesting that it is a different matter for someone to say that their friends/contacts would do a better job when they are in no position to prove it. I know absolutely nothing about these people and very little about Lenagan. I do not care about the personalities but just having a nice big pot of cash and being devoted fans is not enough to convince me that someone would do a better job than Kassam or Lenagan. I would love to see fans with a real passion for the club take over provided that they really do have all of the atributes needed for the job. It is very easy for people to make comments on here giving minimal information. If you want respect then it is not unreasonable to show some to the current owner and I have seen little of that on this thread. In the past 25 years the club had been either run by sugar daddies with loads of cash but little heart for the club (eg Maxwell and Kassam) or well meaning fans who have let their heart rule their head (eg Herd). Before that I believe that it was owned by fans who almost bankrupted the club. Lenagan may be closer to the sugar daddies and has made a number of mistakes but at least he has restored some heart to the club. Even Kassam had to sell players to make a profit but as the club slipped down the league he had sold all of those assetts. He virtually destroyed the youth development scheme that created some of those assetts. If he had retained ownership of the club he would have struggled to maintain the club on a profitable basis especially in the conference. I know this will not happen but I would like Oxvox, as the only official fans organisation associated with the club, to carry out an assessment before the club is taken over. Fair points. On the Oxvox assessment question, would that be a vote by the membership or the committee. On what criteria would you be looking to assess the feasibility of the buy out. As you say, it's the buyer and seller who will decide what happens, the fans can only react to the decisions they make.
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Post by Eric Read on Aug 16, 2010 16:59:27 GMT
Scoob,
So just how many people fall into the bracket of being "fans with £15million to spare" as per your original comment? Who else were you refering to then, with your comment regarding "propping up the bar at the local"? It was not a general comment, but seemed to be very specifically aimed at the potential club suitors, if you ask me.
Why would you wish to cast aspersions in their general direction, when you don't even know them? Be cautious by all means, but you have made comments which go beyond that. Do you have an agenda here? Why make such unfair and unfounded comparisons with previous club owners?
Are you one of Lenegan's "people"?
Perhaps you are Ian Lenegan?
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Post by scoob on Aug 16, 2010 17:45:14 GMT
Scoob, So just how many people fall into the bracket of being "fans with £15million to spare" as per your original comment? Who else were you refering to then, with your comment regarding "propping up the bar at the local"? It was not a general comment, but seemed to be very specifically aimed at the potential club suitors, if you ask me. Why would you wish to cast aspersions in their general direction, when you don't even know them? Be cautious by all means, but you have made comments which go beyond that. Do you have an agenda here? Why make such unfair and unfounded comparisons with previous club owners? Are you one of Lenegan's "people"? Perhaps you are Ian Lenegan? Eric I am not casting aspersions at the people who allegedly have the money because they are not the one's making the claims made on this thread. I am, however, very sceptical of some of the comments made on this thread. We have have seen the club lurch from one poor owner to another in the last 25+ years and I am simply stating my desire that the next owner is better than the previous. Just because some people say that their friends are the best people to take the club forward does not mean that they are correct. If you have read my previous threads then you will know that I try to take a balance view. I do not care about the personalities. In some ways Lenagan & Merry have, so far, been as bad as Kassam in the way that they took over the club then allegedly taken it close to bankruptcy again. Lenagan put a very positive spin on the current situation at the fans forum but the club is still in a perilous state with no more Whiteheads to bail it out. However, we have some positive momentum that has been built since KT took over the day to day running of the club. Just in case you missed it the first time. I would be very pleased if the people mentioned on this thread have the money and ability to take over the club and take it forward in a positive manner. Please do not confuse my scepticism of the posters on this thread with my desire to see the club in safe hands. You also have to remember that the vast majority of football clubs are poorly run and many are close to folding so avoiding that is the most important issue.
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Post by scoob on Aug 16, 2010 22:11:52 GMT
Eric I have made no comments about anyone specific so how can that comment be disrespectful?. I was actually talking in general not aiming those comments at anyone in particular. There are plenty of people who seem to think that they or their friends would be capable of running the club, the conference centre, the development and the associated businesses. History has shown us that it is not simply a matter of having the money available for the short term but there is a need for long term ability. I am just suggesting that it is a different matter for someone to say that their friends/contacts would do a better job when they are in no position to prove it. I know absolutely nothing about these people and very little about Lenagan. I do not care about the personalities but just having a nice big pot of cash and being devoted fans is not enough to convince me that someone would do a better job than Kassam or Lenagan. I would love to see fans with a real passion for the club take over provided that they really do have all of the atributes needed for the job. It is very easy for people to make comments on here giving minimal information. If you want respect then it is not unreasonable to show some to the current owner and I have seen little of that on this thread. In the past 25 years the club had been either run by sugar daddies with loads of cash but little heart for the club (eg Maxwell and Kassam) or well meaning fans who have let their heart rule their head (eg Herd). Before that I believe that it was owned by fans who almost bankrupted the club. Lenagan may be closer to the sugar daddies and has made a number of mistakes but at least he has restored some heart to the club. Even Kassam had to sell players to make a profit but as the club slipped down the league he had sold all of those assetts. He virtually destroyed the youth development scheme that created some of those assetts. If he had retained ownership of the club he would have struggled to maintain the club on a profitable basis especially in the conference. I know this will not happen but I would like Oxvox, as the only official fans organisation associated with the club, to carry out an assessment before the club is taken over. Fair points. On the Oxvox assessment question, would that be a vote by the membership or the committee. On what criteria would you be looking to assess the feasibility of the buy out. As you say, it's the buyer and seller who will decide what happens, the fans can only react to the decisions they make. LR I agree that it will only ever be the buyer and seller that will decide what happens and that is the way every business works so it is unreasonable to expect anything different. I would also not expect a potential buyer to reveal all of their information to the whole world but it may just be possible for them to present and overview of their intentions to the Oxvox Committee who could clarify any issues ahead of any purchase. I know this is very unlikely to happen but it could reassure the sceptical fans like myself. It was a group of fans who helped to push through WPL's purchase of the club in a hasty manner without the stadium being part of the agreement and this was always going to make the future of the club difficult. Fans with money or friends with access to money are not always the best judges of what is best for the club.
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chip
Junior Member
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Post by chip on Aug 17, 2010 8:29:29 GMT
I know this will not happen but I would like Oxvox, as the only official fans organisation associated with the club, to carry out an assessment before the club is taken over.[/quote][/color]
This has to be a wind up.
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Raggles
Full Member
Is Everything Rosie?
Posts: 112
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Post by Raggles on Aug 17, 2010 10:40:46 GMT
Chip, I assume it is a wind-up from our resident tax and accountancy advisor aka Scoob.
Scoob you seriously don't think any new suitors would invite OxVox to carry out an assessment do you? A couple of the founding "old" OxVox boys undertaking Due Diligence, give me a break! They may get asked just before any takeover but they won't be involved in anything else.
Fans did help push through the last deal, its a shame that the owner appears to forget that and whilst not wishing to track back over old ground, so did his useless chum Merry who had nothing to say to OxVox or any other fans for that matter. Fans also helped sanction the FK deal, great thanks to them too.
OxVox have done some great things in the last two years or so, before that, they didn't have the same sort of number of members OR credibility. You have to credit the decision by Mr Lambert to seek some new young blood over the last three years or so, that has done them the world of good.
However, asking some of the "old boys" in that organisation to carry out an assessment is nothing short of preposterous.
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chip
Junior Member
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Post by chip on Aug 17, 2010 10:52:54 GMT
The purchase of the Stadium will be between the current owner and the prospective buyer. Oxvox will have no say in who buys it or when. The stadium will be sold to the one with the money to buy it at the price Kassam accepts. Oxvox will have no say over what happens to the stadium when it is sold.
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Post by slappy on Aug 17, 2010 10:55:00 GMT
From the Oxvox website, one of their committee has a sponsored link to his company and is "a qualified barrister, chartered accountant, and chartered tax adviser" and has advised on over 100 business turnarounds since 2001.
So don't dismiss the Oxvox committee quite so out of hand.
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Post by Eric Read on Aug 17, 2010 11:00:12 GMT
Scoob, So just how many people fall into the bracket of being "fans with £15million to spare" as per your original comment? Who else were you refering to then, with your comment regarding "propping up the bar at the local"? It was not a general comment, but seemed to be very specifically aimed at the potential club suitors, if you ask me. Why would you wish to cast aspersions in their general direction, when you don't even know them? Be cautious by all means, but you have made comments which go beyond that. Do you have an agenda here? Why make such unfair and unfounded comparisons with previous club owners? Are you one of Lenegan's "people"? Perhaps you are Ian Lenegan? Eric I am not casting aspersions at the people who allegedly have the money because they are not the one's making the claims made on this thread. I am, however, very sceptical of some of the comments made on this thread. We have have seen the club lurch from one poor owner to another in the last 25+ years and I am simply stating my desire that the next owner is better than the previous. Just because some people say that their friends are the best people to take the club forward does not mean that they are correct.If you have read my previous threads then you will know that I try to take a balance view. I do not care about the personalities. In some ways Lenagan & Merry have, so far, been as bad as Kassam in the way that they took over the club then allegedly taken it close to bankruptcy again. Lenagan put a very positive spin on the current situation at the fans forum but the club is still in a perilous state with no more Whiteheads to bail it out. However, we have some positive momentum that has been built since KT took over the day to day running of the club. Just in case you missed it the first time. I would be very pleased if the people mentioned on this thread have the money and ability to take over the club and take it forward in a positive manner. Please do not confuse my scepticism of the posters on this thread with my desire to see the club in safe hands. You also have to remember that the vast majority of football clubs are poorly run and many are close to folding so avoiding that is the most important issue. And your questioning does not mean that they are not correct either. Look Scoob, there are clearly some people on this thread who are somewhat "In the Know" about what could possibly happen. I think one or two may have already sailed a bit closer to the wind (in terms of what they have revealed) than they probably intended. No one is going to reveal all of the ins and outs of the situation at this time on here, but that doesn't make it, or them, any less credible. Take what has already been said at face value, adopt an open mind, and wait and see. You may be pleasantly surprised. But just because all can't be revealed yet (for good reason), don't be overly cynical in your observations. Making silly little comments about "blokes in the pub" and "someones friends running the club" makes you sound either bitter, cynical, or someone with something of an agenda, which in all probability, is incorrect. You're not doing yourself any favours if you ask me, with your approach.
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chip
Junior Member
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Post by chip on Aug 17, 2010 11:05:22 GMT
From the Oxvox website, one of their committee has a sponsored link to his company and is "a qualified barrister, chartered accountant, and chartered tax adviser" and has advised on over 100 business turnarounds since 2001. So don't dismiss the Oxvox committee quite so out of hand. So a potential buyer would seek out the services of someone who sits on the Oxvox committee. I would imagine that anyone who has the amount of money required to buy the stadium would have no need to shop around for this expertise. Could it be possible that they already have these people in place??
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Post by Eric Read on Aug 17, 2010 11:05:26 GMT
The purchase of the Stadium will be between the current owner and the prospective buyer. Oxvox will have no say in who buys it or when. The stadium will be sold to the one with the money to buy it at the price Kassam accepts. Oxvox will have no say over what happens to the stadium when it is sold. I thought we were talking about the club being sold, on this thread, why have you suddenly changed the emphasis to the stadium?
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teessideOX
New Member
It's grim up north!
Posts: 36
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Post by teessideOX on Aug 17, 2010 11:06:25 GMT
Really interesting thread this one!
However, does anyone actually know any hard facts and would be prepared to put them out here for all to see and comment on?
Doubtful i know, but hey, stranger things have happened!
There appear to be too many posts on here from people who do know 'a little bit' and so i'm guessing that there really is something going on behind the scenes at our beloved OUFC?
Regards
j
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Post by slappy on Aug 17, 2010 11:09:21 GMT
Anyway, this seems to be going round in circles.
A few people want thanks for the Fans who lent the club money. No problem with that, except who they are is being kept quiet. Also what the terms of their loans are, except the club is hoping to repay half from 2010/11 profits. (Perhaps the West Ham money might help?)
The Jim Smith interview I posted alludes to the serious trouble the club would have been in if still in the Conference this season, but implies that takeover offers have resurfaced now the club is back in the league. Is this the same as the Fans with the loans, or the other 2 offers referred to at the forum?
Eric Read and Londonroader seem to know a bit more too, but confidentiality means they can't say very much, which leaves the rest of us scrabbling around with very bare info that a family has sold their business, and now has cash they want to spend on the club.
I wonder how much money would be required to take the club On a Journey to the Championship. Those down the A420 have got through several million so far, with only a large wage bill to show for it.
I'd start at minimum £50MM, to say buy stadco for £13MM, club and debts paid off at £4MM, and another £5MM for a 5 year run at it. And then you start to worry about the rest of your cash as nearly half of it has gone already.
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chip
Junior Member
Posts: 60
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Post by chip on Aug 17, 2010 11:13:13 GMT
The purchase of the Stadium will be between the current owner and the prospective buyer. Oxvox will have no say in who buys it or when. The stadium will be sold to the one with the money to buy it at the price Kassam accepts. Oxvox will have no say over what happens to the stadium when it is sold. I thought we were talking about the club being sold, on this thread, why have you suddenly changed the emphasis to the stadium? Just highlighting the fact that the club and the stadium are 2 different companies with different owners. The fact that Oxvox are a supporters trust will have no influence on the sale of the stadium by Kassam to either Oxford United or any other potential buyer, if indeed there is one. The sale of the club if it were to happen would also be between the current owner and any one of the 3 offers that has been reportedly been made to the current owner would not involve Oxvox. Far bigger clubs than Oxford have been sold without any supporter involvment.
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Post by Eric Read on Aug 17, 2010 11:13:57 GMT
From the Oxvox website, one of their committee has a sponsored link to his company and is "a qualified barrister, chartered accountant, and chartered tax adviser" and has advised on over 100 business turnarounds since 2001. So don't dismiss the Oxvox committee quite so out of hand. So a potential buyer would seek out the services of someone who sits on the Oxvox committee. I would imagine that anyone who has the amount of money required to buy the stadium would have no need to shop around for this expertise. Could it be possible that they already have these people in place?? I think that would be pretty much spot on, Chip.
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