|
Post by SuperOx on Jul 26, 2010 20:27:44 GMT
Just because Lenagan has had an offer does not mean he sells!
There may not have been proof of funds, it may have undervalued the club, maybe the individuals concerned don't have the wherewithal to take the club forward. I don't know - but to say you should sell something because you have had an offer is simply folly.
I had several offers for my house two years ago but a few of them were totally unacceptable to me and took the p!ss. the right deal was eventually done.
|
|
|
Post by Eric Read on Jul 26, 2010 20:59:38 GMT
Give the guy a break. He's volunteering some very interesting information, these are not fairy stories.
How would you all feel if you discovered that Ian Leneghan wanted double what he's owed? Don't fall into the trap of thinking that because we've won a few football matches everything about our owner is sweetness and light. Where has he been for the last 3 years? Invisible is the answer. Yet we win at Wembley and out he pops with his PowerPoint presentation ready to fool some more of the people for some more of the time.
Think about it........
|
|
|
Post by Chet Lemon on Jul 27, 2010 13:49:59 GMT
From what I understand OUFC1975 is right on the money. Let's look at what we do know. The club was lent a large amount of money by a generous fan – IL confirmed this at the forum. We should be very grateful this this person as they clearly are a big fan and have the club's interests at heart.
IL has himself confirmed he is not putting any more money in and hasn't done so for 18 months. It concerns me greatly that he was not willing to help fund the signing of Beano. This would be a very short-sighted move as Beano was adored by fans and was worth the £40k as he is a proven goal scorer. If this is the case how many more major signings were from donations?
We already know that the 12th Man donated £31k during the last 12 months but how much more was donated or loaned by individuals? Another question to ask is whether the 12th Man cash was actually spent on players, or if it went towards playing debts? How do the people on the 12th Man committee know that the funds are being spent in the agreed way? Is it a matter of trust?
The most worrying statement is that the same benefactor paid for the players wages towards the end of the season. How on earth can the club have got itself into problems with cash-flow after the season we had last year? Without this fan's donation/loan would IL have let us go into admin? If this is the case why isn't IL looking to sell the club if an acceptable offer comes in that would repay his loans?
There's certainly some worrying questions posed on this thread.
|
|
|
Post by Marked Ox on Jul 27, 2010 14:07:57 GMT
Can somebody please explain where the vast profits are going to come from to do with the stadium should IL/OUFC purchase it as suggested by OUFC1975 when he stated IL was hanging on for a payday?
I can see the potential development of the corners, the 4th stand and maybe an opportunity of redeveloping the space in the back of the East Stand but that is it. There must be more valuable opportunities in the UK for his cash if he is after significant returns. Especially considering the ground has to be purchased, and then further investment is needed to develop the site and the likelihood that any return is going to be medium to long-term as it is tied directly into the stadium unlike the rest of the Ozone Complex.
Frankly I don't see IL as this money grabbing owner as implied by a few of the comments on here otherwise why get involved in OUFC if he looking to make a lot of money?! He has made mistakes, particularly with Merry as part of it, but he has also appointed KT and been part of turning OUFC into a profitable concern. By the way I'm neither pro or anti IL, I just want the best for OUFC.
Furthermore, he, KT and the rest of the management team (playing and non-playing) are not getting carried away with the promotion and are looking to build a strong base with which the club can develop. This is demonstrated by their actions/intentions so far by reducing debt (leaving only debt to himself and other supporters), whilst still looking to push on by giving CW the playing budget to attempt to build a competitive squad. Also, their willingness to maintain the Youth system, which would have been easier to scrap as Mansfield have, is a further indicator of building a solid base for OUFC to develop.
Concerning the allegations made by OUFC1975 with regards the supporters loan and IL's refusal to loan further money. It is still an allegation on a forum board, just because it is claimed as fact doesn't make it so. It could be correct but then again it could be false, or a mix of, and we don't have access to those accounts yet to prove or disprove the allegations assuming they even contain the relevant details to do so. Furthermore, I very much doubt KT would answer such questions, and nor should he, considering the sensitivity of the info as well as the need to maintain good working relationships internally and with external parties. One thing is certain, it puts KT in a very awkward situation if he is asked!
In addition, the allegations, even if true, only show one side of the story (including the author's interpretations/slant on the situation) which paint IL as the villain because he hasn't accepted any offers for the club or loaned further money. There could have been any number of perfectly reasonable reasons why he didn't loan the monies. Did the supporters offer the loan or was it as OUFC1975 alleges? If it is the former, then that fundamentally changes everything, especially IL not using his money when another 'soft' loan is available. Anyway, the people who kindly loaned the money are likely to be paid back half of the debt by this time next season, assuming OUFC runs to budget. I wonder if IL will get any of his loan repaid and how long it will take for him to get his £3m+ back?! As for the offers made for OUFC, only the parties involved actually know the details, nobody on here I very much suspect, yet IL is the wrongdoer for some because he turned them down. Do you know actually know he wants double what he is owed Eric Read or is that pure speculation? As others have said, those people making the offer may not have the available resources, made a fair offer or maybe IL and his sons are actually in it for the long haul with the club.
|
|
|
Post by m on Jul 27, 2010 14:31:45 GMT
IL has himself confirmed he is not putting any more money in and hasn't done so for 18 months. It concerns me greatly that he was not willing to help fund the signing of Beano. This would be a very short-sighted move as Beano was adored by fans and was worth the £40k as he is a proven goal scorer. If this is the case how many more major signings were from donations?
Well, possibly up to the £400,000 which was lent, which 'major' signings do you mean?
We already know that the 12th Man donated £31k during the last 12 months but how much more was donated or loaned by individuals? Another question to ask is whether the 12th Man cash was actually spent on players, or if it went towards playing debts? How do the people on the 12th Man committee know that the funds are being spent in the agreed way? Is it a matter of trust?
What do you mean? Was it the exact coins? Are you suggesting the players are the figments of everyone's imagination? Or are you saying that the money went to pay debts? (Which implies that IL must have stumped up the cash!) Don't understand your point at all here.
The most worrying statement is that the same benefactor paid for the players wages towards the end of the season. How on earth can the club have got itself into problems with cash-flow after the season we had last year? What, where we hardly played a home game during the winter? Yeah, the cash must have rolled right in! Or are you talking about the play off revenues? erm... Without this fan's donation/loan would IL have let us go into admin?Who would have forced this admin exactly? If this is the case why isn't IL looking to sell the club if an acceptable offer comes in that would repay his loans? A reasonable question at last!
There's certainly some worrying questions posed on this thread. Maybe - not by you though.
Oufc75 does raise some interesting points, and it is a great shame that he (or anyone with his knowledge) was not present at the forum to quiz IL directly.
|
|
|
Post by Chet Lemon on Jul 27, 2010 15:23:56 GMT
In response to m:
1) Please re-read oufc1975's post where he says the same investor paid for Beano's transfer fee. I have heard this from other sources as well. I asked an open question if any other players were signed using the same person's funds.
2) In regards to the 12th Man I am asking did the money go on players (as promised) or was it actually used on paying debts or running costs. Did the fan that invested £400k+ pay for these signings with their donation so the 12th Man fund was actually used for other purposes?
3) KT said that in order to break even/make a profit the club needed to make 1 of the following targets: Promotion, have home cup games, above 6,000 average attendance, reach the play-offs. We met ALL of these criteria. So surely their should have been better financial management to ensure cash-flow was available to pay wages. We also had the Deano payment.
|
|
|
Post by Yellowbrains on Jul 27, 2010 15:58:44 GMT
2) In regards to the 12th Man I am asking did the money go on players (as promised) or was it actually used on paying debts or running costs. Did the fan that invested £400k+ pay for these signings with their donation so the 12th Man fund was actually used for other purposes? I believe the 12th Man Fund money is controlled by a fund board. The account is controlled by OxVox, so the club would be unable to simply dip into it and if the club wants to access money from the account it must first be approved by this board, which I think includes Kelvin Thomas and I think a couple of OxVox representatives.
|
|
|
Post by scooter on Jul 27, 2010 16:24:38 GMT
Give the guy a break. He's volunteering some very interesting information, these are not fairy stories. How would you all feel if you discovered that Ian Leneghan wanted double what he's owed? Don't fall into the trap of thinking that because we've won a few football matches everything about our owner is sweetness and light. Where has he been for the last 3 years? Invisible is the answer. Yet we win at Wembley and out he pops with his PowerPoint presentation ready to fool some more of the people for some more of the time. Think about it........ f**k me that's twice in a month I've agreed with AFC Eric The chief ECLS is a master manipulator and whilst we should be grateful for what he has done in recent years I don't believe he is in OUFC for the long term, if opportunities present themselves at Wigan he will spend there first. I get the impression he wants to get a return on the money he has put into the club so will be looking for more than he has put in to sell. Wheres the trustafarian, isn't it about time the Boardroom was invaded again, after all we wouldn't have put up with all this smoke and mirrors from FK.
|
|
|
Post by m on Jul 27, 2010 17:15:49 GMT
In response to m:
1) Please re-read oufc1975's post where he says the same investor paid for Beano's transfer fee. I have heard this from other sources as well. I asked an open question if any other players were signed using the same person's funds.
Fair enough. For me it's an irrelevance, there was a £400K shortfall - the loan covered this. Interesting that you say last seasons income should have seen us through whilst agreeing the money was spent on Beano who signed before the season started. Time travel?
2) In regards to the 12th Man I am asking did the money go on players (as promised) or was it actually used on paying debts or running costs. Did the fan that invested £400k+ pay for these signings with their donation so the 12th Man fund was actually used for other purposes?
Scooter has answered that more ably than I would have!
3) KT said that in order to break even/make a profit the club needed to make 1 of the following targets: Promotion, have home cup games, above 6,000 average attendance, reach the play-offs. We met ALL of these criteria. So surely their should have been better financial management to ensure cash-flow was available to pay wages. We also had the Deano payment.
There WAS MUCH BETTER financial management! My argument to support this is the small profit rather than the massive loss.
Questions do need to be asked but I see your rant as a string of other peoples truths and your own nonsense cobbled together with the sole intention of causing trouble.
|
|
|
Post by SuperOx on Jul 27, 2010 20:07:40 GMT
I believe that under the unforunate profligacy of the Merry chairmanship the club racked up significant arrears to HMRC re unpaid paye, NI etc.
Now it just may have been the case that given the HMRC these days show no mercy to football clubs, a significant chunk of the cashflow was used to make inroads and finally clear this millstone around the clubs neck ?
|
|
|
Post by Brahma Bull on Jul 27, 2010 21:59:00 GMT
Let's just clarify the situation regarding the 12th Man. The fund has raised over £31,000 in 12 months, it has handed this money over as per the terms and conditions, with each request having to be authorised by the three-man fund management committee. Before monies are handed over, the fund management get sight of financial documentation/invoices to confirm the amounts required.
The funds terms and conditions are quite specific, funds are to be used to supplement the playing budget, not to be used in lieu of it. I think everyone accepts that is the conditions of the fund.
People seem to be suggesting that the 12th Man money is being used for other expenses and paying off debts and not the use it is intended for. Surely the club (or IL) wouldn't risk that?
So that leads us onto the £400k. I can see how part of that money secured Constable, Creighton, Clist and others, after all, the 12th Man wasn't in operation then. Likewise, Green and Potter this close season - 12th Man didn't have involvment in those deals but that would seem like a large shortfall, unless that money paid for signing on fee's and wages.
|
|
|
Post by slappy on Jul 27, 2010 23:07:59 GMT
Timing wise I can see that towards the end of the season (ie March 2010 time) the 2009/10 season ticket money has been spent and that the club is having to "refinance" the debt which was external to WPL.
Perhaps crucially HMRC were taking a much tougher line with football clubs in 2010, and that clubs would not be allowed to run up VAT and PAYE arrears which seemed to have made up a lot of the external debt at June '09.
However why not use the bank loan and overdraft facilities which the club had taken out in Jan '09?
Also why did the club continue to run the youth development scheme in 09/10? Wouldn't it have been cheaper to close it (albeit with redundancy costs?)
It appears to me that these fans' loans may have been asked for, but when offered were then taken up, and used as part of the club's financial plans. Why take a bank overdraft if there is a "better" loan available? Is the gripe that these people aren't given more recognition? If so, they should have asked to be named and the loans and their terms made more public. The loans were given a good but brief mention at the fans forum. Kassam used to say if you wanted to go on the board you could if you were willing to invest £30K per year.
I understand the scepticism of Lenagan's motives, given he has pretty much stayed in the background throughout. But not everything has to be done for a financial reason. Why did he buy the London Broncos (Harlequins) rugby league team? Support Old Woodstock Town FC financially? His sons are now on the Board of Directors of OUFC, it was stated they are football fans, and there seems to be a long term succession plan through to them. So far Lenagan family have been unpaid and have not been charging loan interest for 2 seasons.
We've had no detail of the "offers" to buy the club. As Eric Read says, if one was for instance "double" the debt, I would be surprised if that was not taken up. But presumably to take over the club and leave it debt free without Lenagan taking a haircut, you would need £3.36 MM to repay Lenagan, another £900K to pay off other debts (including the fans 400K loans) - {the total external debt at June 09 was £1.56MM, less Deano money £700K = 900K}, then say another £1MM or £2MM in reserve just in case of a disastrous season with relegation etc. Call it a round £5MM. I doubt there are too many Oxford fans with that amount of spare cash - and I mean willing to spend all of it with very probably no chance of repayment.
And that is before even starting to look at the stadium.
|
|
|
Post by oufc1975 on Jul 28, 2010 13:39:07 GMT
I am not trying to be controversial, I did not start the thread., but it is 100% factual. The truth will come out and one reason for this is the individual concerned in lending the debt will not provide any future funds although this can be done. Also he could also incidentally has the funds to purchase the stadium but will only get involved if the football club benefit 100% from the stadium purchase (the profit in this is in a redevlopment and regeneration of the entire site) and he is convinced this will not be the case.
On this basis IL will have to repay his loan and if his numbers dont add up will have to put further funds in or get them elsewhere. The funding that IL is talking about to purchase the stadium is all bank loan, so he nor any of his investors have commited a penny of personal money so far to this project so my feeling is that at some point in the next 2 seasons our fortune on the pitch and cashflow issues will mean that IL will have to put his hand in his pocket and we will then see what happens.
TIme will tell, but the facts are as people know. We have borrowed a substantial sum in our most succesful year for ages as our owner will not fund anymore. He has no money, or is unwilling to personally invest in the future of a stadium. Money was borrowed from the same source previously to buy constable amongst other funding. Our owner has as far as he is concerned invested enough. The investor who is helping did so and wants to remain unknown but is wondering why in hindsight he invested in a club, along with people in a 12th man fund, 50-50 tickets when the owner has decided to stop and then advises what a rosy position were in.
It would appear the fans are making up the shortfall and surely we can all see that. This as far as I am concerned is no problem as long as when and if we buy our last remaining asset it goes to the clubs benefit and not Woodstock Partners Limited.
I will say no more as I have already betrayed a confidence everyone can draw their own conclusions and if you dont believe the circumsatances then fine, but the points have been raised and they are valid,concerning and we surely are entitled to ask the questions as we pay to follow our club all over the country and at the end of the day we all just want to give OUFC the best chance foor future success!
|
|
|
Post by SuperOx on Jul 28, 2010 14:10:16 GMT
So someone who's name is known to you is willing and able to purchase the stadium and adjacent land in cash and buy out Lenagan if the deal is right and has funded player acquistions over the past 18 months? Not only that, he wants to see the club benefit 100% from the investment he wants to make in the stadium but he would presumably benefit from a planning gain further down the track? Sounds very interesting, tantalising and potentially mouth watering for the fans I would say that if this individual is buying players and funding wages and has the wealth to buy the stadium he must be a supporter and it's s shame that things cannot develop. Is his name Santa Claus ? (only joking) but I would say it's probably a good idea OUFC1975 to say no more on the subject but thanks for what you know and have shared with some of us.
|
|
|
Post by Chet Lemon on Jul 28, 2010 14:36:28 GMT
Let's hope we find out more about this investor over the coming weeks. Potentially sounds like a great person to be involved with the club. But that is easy to say without knowing the facts.
|
|
|
Post by oufc1975 on Jul 28, 2010 16:21:22 GMT
I will say no more other than to say, family have been fans since Headington United days, people are Oxford through and through with good values, if IL is genuine I wish him the best and hope he gets everything done if not and things dont work out and he wants to sell there looks to be some very good options for the club!
|
|
|
Post by Londonroader on Jul 28, 2010 18:16:12 GMT
I will say no more other than to say, family have been fans since Headington United days, people are Oxford through and through with good values, if IL is genuine I wish him the best and hope he gets everything done if not and things dont work out and he wants to sell there looks to be some very good options for the club! If the family have been waiting since the Headington United day, another year or so should not be too big a hardship, I hope their patience hold out though! Thank you for your "views", I hope fans can really see what could be in front of them..
|
|
|
Post by Oxford Yankee on Jul 31, 2010 8:52:08 GMT
Playing Devil's Advocate here.....where were these dream investors during the previous nightmares we've endured waiting for our white knight to come to the rescue?
|
|
|
Post by oufc1975 on Aug 1, 2010 6:38:13 GMT
They were building their business which has now been sold. They have endured these years with us as fans but until the last couple of years were not in a position to do anything meaningful, that has now changed.
|
|
|
Post by Oxford Yankee on Aug 1, 2010 8:07:10 GMT
I have no idea why anyone would do it unless they want to lose all of their money as we fans demand more and more from their personal wealth.
If they do take it over then it is only a matter of time until they themselves become the people we want out.
I wish them luck.
|
|