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Post by YellowHoods on Sept 28, 2010 8:44:22 GMT
Just listening to an interesting radio debate on standards of English amongst the young. Does it matter whether they can spell and punctuate, or speak like refugees from the Bronx, or use a multitude of annoying "likes" and "innits" in every sentence?
Made me think of the annual debate about A level results and why pass rates are increasing year on year. I then, eventually, started thinking about degree standard education.
We all know that close to 50% of school leavers now go to "Uni". When I was 18 it was 2%. Looking at the Times the other day, typically 65%+ of students achieve firsts or 2:1s. In my day a first was rare, and upper seconds difficult to get.
So -
a) What's the point of 50% of people going to University? A degree now cannot be worth as much to an employer, assuming a graduate can find one;
b) Why not apply a bell curve to results, with, say, no more than 10% getting firsts and 2:1s? That would at least give the holders a premium.
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Post by Pogue Mahone on Sept 28, 2010 9:09:46 GMT
So, like, I dunno. Innit.
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Post by amarillo on Sept 28, 2010 9:16:50 GMT
Yes, I think it does matter the way some people speak these days
I think way too many people go to Uni - there should be more apprenticeships and practical courses for people to learn trades instead
also agree that top grades should apply to a percentage
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Post by SteMerritt on Sept 28, 2010 9:25:04 GMT
also agree that top grades should apply to a percentage I presume you mean something like 'top 5% A, next 10% B...' etc? The problem with that is if you are fortunate enough to be in a year where the results are lower you could end up with a grade higher than someone in a better year who scored a higher mark than you... |
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Post by Boogaloo on Sept 28, 2010 9:25:14 GMT
What I think is disgraceful is the school league tables. On face value it's a nice idea so you can see how good or bad a particular school is, but in the longer term what happens is that richer families move into properties near good schools, and this pushes up the prices due to demand. And on the flip side the poorer families are forced to settle for the 'bad schools'.
Plus are they really 'good schools'? If the pupils are from families from the so-called upper and middle-classes they are going to naturally perform better overall than those from less priviledged backgrounds or where English is not their first language. I know this is a generalisation, and there are exceptions, but I believe a low-income family should have just as much chance of getting into a top State school as a high-income family.
Brighton and Hove council have the right idea with their random selection process.
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Post by amarillo on Sept 28, 2010 9:38:06 GMT
I presume you mean something like 'top 5% A, next 10% B...' etc? The problem with that is if you are fortunate enough to be in a year where the results are lower you could end up with a grade higher than someone in a better year who scored a higher mark than you... Good point, but over the whole country there can't be that much variation |
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Post by headingtonoldboy on Sept 28, 2010 10:10:56 GMT
I am a teacher in a comprehensive school for 14-18 years olds.We now only teach students how to pass exams and nothing else. This is purely and simply to improve pass rates. Students can get marks for their maths exams simply by the correct working out even if the answer is wrong. There are maths workshops for those who are close to gaining 'c' grades but those below 'c' are largely ignored. In English, some of the spelling in this age group is appalling, but marks are not deducted for poor spelling when in my day they were. Educational standards have gone to pot. Its all statistics to keep Ofsted happy.
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Post by YellowHoods on Sept 28, 2010 10:18:37 GMT
I am a teacher in a comprehensive school for 14-18 years olds.We now only teach students how to pass exams and nothing else. This is purely and simply to improve pass rates. Students can get marks for their maths exams simply by the correct working out even if the answer is wrong. There are maths workshops for those who are close to gaining 'c' grades but those below 'c' are largely ignored. In English, some of the spelling in this age group is appalling, but marks are not deducted for poor spelling when in my day they were. Educational standards have gone to pot. Its all statistics to keep Ofsted happy. What a great insight. To take that on, we have many posters on this forum who are at University. SOME of them - not all - display appalling standards of English on this board. There is a diminishing quodos to having a degree nowadays, let alone A levels. |
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Post by Agadoo on Sept 28, 2010 13:29:20 GMT
I am a teacher in a comprehensive school for 14-18 years olds.We now only teach students how to pass exams and nothing else. This is purely and simply to improve pass rates. Students can get marks for their maths exams simply by the correct working out even if the answer is wrong. There are maths workshops for those who are close to gaining 'c' grades but those below 'c' are largely ignored. In English, some of the spelling in this age group is appalling, but marks are not deducted for poor spelling when in my day they were. Educational standards have gone to pot. Its all statistics to keep Ofsted happy. Maybe this is where education is failing in a nutshell Teacher is posting on a football forum instead of learning our kids....  |
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Post by headingtonoldboy on Sept 28, 2010 14:01:44 GMT
I am a teacher in a comprehensive school for 14-18 years olds.We now only teach students how to pass exams and nothing else. This is purely and simply to improve pass rates. Students can get marks for their maths exams simply by the correct working out even if the answer is wrong. There are maths workshops for those who are close to gaining 'c' grades but those below 'c' are largely ignored. In English, some of the spelling in this age group is appalling, but marks are not deducted for poor spelling when in my day they were. Educational standards have gone to pot. Its all statistics to keep Ofsted happy. Maybe this is where education is failing in a nutshell Teacher is posting on a football forum instead of learning our kids.... We do have coffee breaks you know and free lessons sometimes. |
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Post by Lone Gunman on Sept 28, 2010 14:22:32 GMT
I am a teacher in a comprehensive school for 14-18 years olds.We now only teach students how to pass exams and nothing else. This is purely and simply to improve pass rates. Students can get marks for their maths exams simply by the correct working out even if the answer is wrong. There are maths workshops for those who are close to gaining 'c' grades but those below 'c' are largely ignored. In English, some of the spelling in this age group is appalling, but marks are not deducted for poor spelling when in my day they were. Educational standards have gone to pot. Its all statistics to keep Ofsted happy. What a great insight. To take that on, we have many posters on this forum who are at University. SOME of them - not all - display appalling standards of English on this board. There is a diminishing quodos to having a degree nowadays, let alone A levels. I'd be interested to know if I fall into that category YH. Personally I consider my standard of English to be quite good. I admit to the odd typo here and there but surely spastic fingers cannot be counted toward an appalling standard of english. I for one like to see good English from people, but dislike language snobbery on internet forums, a medium where the standard of English is not a crucial issue. Mind you, I suppose its easy to be superior from up on yor high horse... |
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Post by boris on Sept 28, 2010 14:46:26 GMT
We do have coffee breaks you know and free lessons sometimes. So that's why educational standards are slipping! Seriously, though, I think only part of the problem is the chasing of targets and the ease of access to further education (although I still haven't worked out why that could be construed as evidence of falling standards, rather than the other way round). I think it's also true that the standards expected of teachers is also falling, as PGCEs (or whatever they're called) are handed out very easily, whereas time was teachers had to have a degree relevant to the subject they taught. |
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Post by Simon Lill on Sept 28, 2010 19:47:46 GMT
I'm convinced the vast majority of students go to uni now purely to get p*ssed and laid.
It's the 'holyoaks' affect.
Getting a degree is just a convenient by-product that in reality doesn't mean as much as it used to as the market is diluted with likeminded graduates.
If I was an employer I'd value experience, potential and character over a degree.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Sept 28, 2010 21:33:10 GMT
I'm convinced the vast majority of students go to uni now purely to get p*ssed and laid. It's the 'holyoaks' affect. Getting a degree is just a convenient by-product that in reality doesn't mean as much as it used to as the market is diluted with likeminded graduates. If I was an employer I'd value experience, potential and character over a degree. Thanks for that. Nice to know I'm just a sex-crazed pisshead. Its also good to know my degree means sh!t too... |
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Post by Belgian Yellow on Sept 28, 2010 21:46:45 GMT
An MA today is roughly equivalent to what a degree was worth 10-15 years ago. So you need that to catch the employer's eye.
All Universities, never mind schools, are under pressure to raise their results, year after year. This kind of crap is measured in the various league tables and student satisfaction indexes, so it is little wonder that grade inflation is rampant.
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Post by The Resurrection on Sept 28, 2010 22:20:22 GMT
I am currently in my second year of A levels and hoping to go to Uni to study Geography next year. The A level is mark scheme Is pretty complicated at the moment, it's not done on marks but by converting the marks into percentages compared with now the rest of the country. This is supposed to be mean that pass rates stay relatively the same each year but they've continued to go up, which is why they have now bought in the new A* grade at A Level. I just wonder whether people are actually getting cleverer? (Not that any of you older people will accept that!) but my parents don't have a clue about half the stuff I get taught, despite my dad taking two of the same subjects as me. Surely If that's the case then pass marks deserve to be higher? About Uni, YHs is right, I don't think degrees are worth as much as they used to be and I've heard that many people can earn more money (in the medium term anyway) by doing an apprenticeship or something. The reason I want to go to uni and why many other people will be looking at going is that my potential course gives you alot and develops a lot of your skills, skills that employers look for - as well as being interested by the subject/course itself. And the whole Uni experience of course.  To be honest though, I have absolutely no idea what I'd do if I didn't get into Uni, doing a boring average day to day job doesn't appeal to me at all. I don't think a football forum is the best place to judge peoples English either. My English isn't the best on here (perhaps down to the awkward iPod touch keyboard) but I don't use text speak or anything. |
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Post by YellowHoods on Sept 28, 2010 22:51:01 GMT
What a great insight. To take that on, we have many posters on this forum who are at University. SOME of them - not all - display appalling standards of English on this board. There is a diminishing quodos to having a degree nowadays, let alone A levels. I'd be interested to know if I fall into that category YH. Personally I consider my standard of English to be quite good. I admit to the odd typo here and there but surely spastic fingers cannot be counted toward an appalling standard of english. I for one like to see good English from people, but dislike language snobbery on internet forums, a medium where the standard of English is not a crucial issue. Mind you, I suppose its easy to be superior from up on yor high horse... Actually I wasn't referring to you. And what's with the "high horse" comment, or does that apply to anyone with strong views on anything, to your mind? |
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Post by Lone Gunman on Sept 28, 2010 23:42:23 GMT
I'd be interested to know if I fall into that category YH. Personally I consider my standard of English to be quite good. I admit to the odd typo here and there but surely spastic fingers cannot be counted toward an appalling standard of english. I for one like to see good English from people, but dislike language snobbery on internet forums, a medium where the standard of English is not a crucial issue. Mind you, I suppose its easy to be superior from up on yor high horse... Actually I wasn't referring to you. And what's with the "high horse" comment, or does that apply to anyone with strong views on anything, to your mind?Not at all. The high horse comment refers to what I sense is your own self appointed status as the guardian of good english and eloquent prose on TiU. If this is not what you are trying to exude I apologise, but somethimes you come across to me as a bit of a language snob. The subject of academic qualifications and their relative merit is one on which I have very strong feelings I will admit. As a person who has had at various times put in the hard work and dealt with the pressure of SATs that don't matter, GCSEs that have been dumbed down and A-Levels which are worthless, it winds me up to be told that the hard work I am putting in now on my degree scheme is pointless too. Now, a degree is not what it used to be, but that is due to the fact that more people are taking university degrees and there are more universities. In the same sense car ownership is not what it used to be but this is not because cars are of lesser value now than forty of fifty years ago. It is a matter of more cars and more manufacturers. The quantity of graduates is, I agree, a factor in why posessing a degree is not now an automatic pass into the world of work, but the fact that more people are now able to do degrees does not mean the quality has sunk dramatically. The bottom line is, i think, that i am and I think i speak for a lot of people of my genration here, sick and tired of being told by a bunch of old farts in their armchairs how worthless and in effect pointless whatever qualification I have just achieved is. Its a real kick in the teeth to graft and work and put the effort in to achieve a decent grade only to be told on the nine o'clock news the same evening that the reason you got a good mark wasn't because of the work you put in but rather because the test was p#ss easy or the qualification has been dumbed down. |
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Post by Winchesterox on Sept 29, 2010 3:35:20 GMT
When I was studying for my degree I remember going to the college library only to find that most of the required reading had been booked out. Being a bit poor, I could not afford to buy books. Nowadays, students are able to obtain a lot of information online and electronically, with easier searching capability. A major advantage in my view.
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Post by YellowHoods on Sept 29, 2010 9:35:39 GMT
Actually I wasn't referring to you. And what's with the "high horse" comment, or does that apply to anyone with strong views on anything, to your mind?Not at all. The high horse comment refers to what I sense is your own self appointed status as the guardian of good english and eloquent prose on TiU. If this is not what you are trying to exude I apologise, but somethimes you come across to me as a bit of a language snob. The subject of academic qualifications and their relative merit is one on which I have very strong feelings I will admit. As a person who has had at various times put in the hard work and dealt with the pressure of SATs that don't matter, GCSEs that have been dumbed down and A-Levels which are worthless, it winds me up to be told that the hard work I am putting in now on my degree scheme is pointless too. Now, a degree is not what it used to be, but that is due to the fact that more people are taking university degrees and there are more universities. In the same sense car ownership is not what it used to be but this is not because cars are of lesser value now than forty of fifty years ago. It is a matter of more cars and more manufacturers. The quantity of graduates is, I agree, a factor in why posessing a degree is not now an automatic pass into the world of work, but the fact that more people are now able to do degrees does not mean the quality has sunk dramatically. The bottom line is, i think, that i am and I think i speak for a lot of people of my genration here, sick and tired of being told by a bunch of old farts in their armchairs how worthless and in effect pointless whatever qualification I have just achieved is. Its a real kick in the teeth to graft and work and put the effort in to achieve a decent grade only to be told on the nine o'clock news the same evening that the reason you got a good mark wasn't because of the work you put in but rather because the test was p#ss easy or the qualification has been dumbed down. I've been called worse things than a language snob! I'll take that, insult or not. I try to use good English myself, but I don't remember criticising others, until now! As Newbury says, perhaps this is not the best place to judge anyway. People write in a hurry and quality is not their main concern. You make some good points above, and people like you who DO work hard are probably losing out, as others achieve the same end results with less effort. And it must be easier to achieve top grades now - there is no other explanation unless you truly believe young people are getting smarter year on year. I don't. |
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To be honest though, I have absolutely no idea what I'd do if I didn't get into Uni, doing a boring average day to day job doesn't appeal to me at all.
