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Post by Long Live Clarkey on Jan 8, 2011 12:58:11 GMT
Has one hell of a kick on him! How exactly is he playing in the championship?
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Post by Simon Lill on Jan 8, 2011 13:00:03 GMT
Surely United bound one day?
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Post by Long Live Clarkey on Jan 8, 2011 13:02:49 GMT
Surely United bound one day? Not so sure we could afford him...
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Post by Simon Lill on Jan 8, 2011 13:05:03 GMT
Surely United bound one day? Not so sure we could afford him... I meant MAN United ;-) I know, I know whoosh alert!
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Post by KidInTheRiot on Jan 8, 2011 13:11:42 GMT
He was league 2 not so long ago, prob on a fair whack at Leeds and challenging for the prem whilst being first choice.
He's still young so not a bad position to be in
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Post by Simon Lill on Jan 8, 2011 13:16:26 GMT
He was league 2 not so long ago, prob on a fair whack at Leeds and challenging for the prem whilst being first choice. He's still young so not a bad position to be in Defo. Leeds is probably the perfect club for him at the moment whilst he learns his trade. Will be a premiership keeper one way or the other within a couple of years. Personally I hope with Leeds. Fergie will definitely be monitoring him though...
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Post by Agadoo on Jan 8, 2011 14:01:31 GMT
He played for Man City under Sven
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Post by Long Live Clarkey on Jan 8, 2011 14:03:08 GMT
He played for Man City under Sven Wasn't he about 19 at the time? Much as I like him, no keeper should be a first choice at 19.
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Post by Long Live Clarkey on Jan 8, 2011 14:41:18 GMT
Scott Carson's in the premiership and just last season, this man was in league two. Football's a funny world.
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Toeby
Full Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Toeby on Jan 8, 2011 14:48:16 GMT
He played for Man City under Sven Wasn't he about 19 at the time? Much as I like him, no keeper should be a first choice at 19. Completely disagree. Why shouldn't they?
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Post by Long Live Clarkey on Jan 8, 2011 15:05:28 GMT
Wasn't he about 19 at the time? Much as I like him, no keeper should be a first choice at 19. Completely disagree. Why shouldn't they? Mentally speaking, goalkeeping is the toughest position on the pitch. At the age of 19, any keeper is going to be at a massive disadvantage, seeing as how they're probably younger than all the other players on the pitch. At the younger ages (below about 20), crossing is also generally quite poor. As a result, young keepers are generally inept at dealing with balls into the box, and of course any mistake a very young keeper makes will affect them mentally twofold. Young keepers have ruined their careers through mistakes quite frequently, in a way that doesn't happen with older keepers. Ross Turnbull, for example, had a rubbish debut at Chelsea and is considered by many to be the worst keeper Chelsea have by a considerable distance. Scott Carson's England mistake - up to that point he was very promising, and is now difficult to defend as a premiership keeper. Chris Kirkland is another example, very promising and then had a poor spell, is now totally unnoticed. This is also argued from personal experience. I've seen plenty of young keepers mess up in the various teams I've played for and give up almost instantly (they were all younger than me), although of course this is at amateur level and so you could argue against it from that standpoint. It's too much of a risk to take in my mind.
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Post by 'Beav' on Jan 8, 2011 15:07:54 GMT
Yeah I disagree LLC.
Its about ability and mental toughness - just because you're like 19 doesn't mean you're not as tough mentally as a 35 year old. Plus if you're good anyway you won't make mistakes.
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Post by chris1986 on Jan 8, 2011 15:08:51 GMT
Completely disagree. Why shouldn't they? Mentally speaking, goalkeeping is the toughest position on the pitch. At the age of 19, any keeper is going to be at a massive disadvantage, seeing as how they're probably younger than all the other players on the pitch. At the younger ages (below about 20), crossing is also generally quite poor. As a result, young keepers are generally inept at dealing with balls into the box, and of course any mistake a very young keeper makes will affect them mentally twofold. Young keepers have ruined their careers through mistakes quite frequently, in a way that doesn't happen with older keepers. Ross Turnbull, for example, had a rubbish debut at Chelsea and is considered by many to be the worst keeper Chelsea have by a considerable distance. Scott Carson's England mistake - up to that point he was very promising, and is now difficult to defend as a premiership keeper. Chris Kirkland is another example, very promising and then had a poor spell, is now totally unnoticed. This is also argued from personal experience. I've seen plenty of young keepers mess up in the various teams I've played for and give up almost instantly (they were all younger than me), although of course this is at amateur level and so you could argue against it from that standpoint. It's too much of a risk to take in my mind. He is older than Joe Hart who was number 1 most of that season...
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Post by Long Live Clarkey on Jan 8, 2011 15:13:30 GMT
Mentally speaking, goalkeeping is the toughest position on the pitch. At the age of 19, any keeper is going to be at a massive disadvantage, seeing as how they're probably younger than all the other players on the pitch. At the younger ages (below about 20), crossing is also generally quite poor. As a result, young keepers are generally inept at dealing with balls into the box, and of course any mistake a very young keeper makes will affect them mentally twofold. Young keepers have ruined their careers through mistakes quite frequently, in a way that doesn't happen with older keepers. Ross Turnbull, for example, had a rubbish debut at Chelsea and is considered by many to be the worst keeper Chelsea have by a considerable distance. Scott Carson's England mistake - up to that point he was very promising, and is now difficult to defend as a premiership keeper. Chris Kirkland is another example, very promising and then had a poor spell, is now totally unnoticed. This is also argued from personal experience. I've seen plenty of young keepers mess up in the various teams I've played for and give up almost instantly (they were all younger than me), although of course this is at amateur level and so you could argue against it from that standpoint. It's too much of a risk to take in my mind. He is older than Joe Hart who was number 1 most of that season... I seem to remember back then he wasn't rated all that highly. It is possible to work with a 19 year old keeper, I'm sure, but really if your first choice keeper is 19 in the premiership, you should be looking around for another one.
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Post by Lone Gunman on Jan 8, 2011 15:17:44 GMT
Yeah I disagree LLC. Its about ability and mental toughness - just because you're like 19 doesn't mean you're not as tough mentally as a 35 year old. Plus if you're good anyway you won't make mistakes. I'd still argue that at 19 confidence is much more fragile, and goalies rely on confidence. There's nothing worse than a keeper whose self belief and confidence is at rock bottom.
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Post by Long Live Clarkey on Jan 8, 2011 15:19:50 GMT
Yeah I disagree LLC. Its about ability and mental toughness - just because you're like 19 doesn't mean you're not as tough mentally as a 35 year old. Plus if you're good anyway you won't make mistakes. Joe Hart's made two this season. Thankfully he has the mental fragility of your average bull.
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Toeby
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Posts: 160
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Post by Toeby on Jan 8, 2011 15:29:11 GMT
Completely disagree. Why shouldn't they? Mentally speaking, goalkeeping is the toughest position on the pitch. At the age of 19, any keeper is going to be at a massive disadvantage, seeing as how they're probably younger than all the other players on the pitch. At the younger ages (below about 20), crossing is also generally quite poor. As a result, young keepers are generally inept at dealing with balls into the box, and of course any mistake a very young keeper makes will affect them mentally twofold. Young keepers have ruined their careers through mistakes quite frequently, in a way that doesn't happen with older keepers. Ross Turnbull, for example, had a rubbish debut at Chelsea and is considered by many to be the worst keeper Chelsea have by a considerable distance. Scott Carson's England mistake - up to that point he was very promising, and is now difficult to defend as a premiership keeper. Chris Kirkland is another example, very promising and then had a poor spell, is now totally unnoticed. This is also argued from personal experience. I've seen plenty of young keepers mess up in the various teams I've played for and give up almost instantly (they were all younger than me), although of course this is at amateur level and so you could argue against it from that standpoint. It's too much of a risk to take in my mind. Speaking from experience also, I played as a defender initially when I played youth football, before going in goal. I then went on to play a good standard of youth football as a keeper for several years before switching back to a centre back and I'd say that being a keeper is about confidence. The further back you go on the pitch, the more noticeable a defensive mistake is. If a striker misses a tackle he still has a midfield, defence and the last line - a keeper to stop the attack. Even if a centre back has a howler he can still get rescued by his keeper, as you often see. However, if the keeper has a hack it's often a goal. The thing I found is how well you can pick yourself up after making a mistake and that is certainly not a trait found more commonly in older players. There are a lot of keepers who have done well at a young age and are still doing it now, besides, if you don't play a keeper because he's 'too young', how is he ever going to become experienced?
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Post by Long Live Clarkey on Jan 8, 2011 15:39:53 GMT
Mentally speaking, goalkeeping is the toughest position on the pitch. At the age of 19, any keeper is going to be at a massive disadvantage, seeing as how they're probably younger than all the other players on the pitch. At the younger ages (below about 20), crossing is also generally quite poor. As a result, young keepers are generally inept at dealing with balls into the box, and of course any mistake a very young keeper makes will affect them mentally twofold. Young keepers have ruined their careers through mistakes quite frequently, in a way that doesn't happen with older keepers. Ross Turnbull, for example, had a rubbish debut at Chelsea and is considered by many to be the worst keeper Chelsea have by a considerable distance. Scott Carson's England mistake - up to that point he was very promising, and is now difficult to defend as a premiership keeper. Chris Kirkland is another example, very promising and then had a poor spell, is now totally unnoticed. This is also argued from personal experience. I've seen plenty of young keepers mess up in the various teams I've played for and give up almost instantly (they were all younger than me), although of course this is at amateur level and so you could argue against it from that standpoint. It's too much of a risk to take in my mind. Speaking from experience also, I played as a defender initially when I played youth football, before going in goal. I then went on to play a good standard of youth football as a keeper for several years before switching back to a centre back and I'd say that being a keeper is about confidence. The further back you go on the pitch, the more noticeable a defensive mistake is. If a striker misses a tackle he still has a midfield, defence and the last line - a keeper to stop the attack. Even if a centre back has a howler he can still get rescued by his keeper, as you often see. However, if the keeper has a hack it's often a goal. The thing I found is how well you can pick yourself up after making a mistake and that is certainly not a trait found more commonly in older players.There are a lot of keepers who have done well at a young age and are still doing it now, besides, if you don't play a keeper because he's 'too young', how is he ever going to become experienced? I have to really disagree with you there. Older players have cooler heads and more self-belief, so almost always deal with mistakes better than young players. There are keepers that do well at a young age, however, that's more like age 23-5, which is still young for a keeper. Joe Hart emerged around this time, I believe, as has Kasper Schmeichel, as did Cech (who isn't really up to the standard he was then!) and as has Manuel Neuer. Younger than that keepers are almost universally second choice. However, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying young keepers shouldn't play, no way. Cup football is a perfect opportunity to play keepers, because the confidence keepers will gain by keeping their team in the cup is far greater than in a league match. Also, being a second choice in the league can be equally exciting for a keeper, as when they get their chance (see Tim Krul) they're often very up for it. At this point they can generally do no wrong - if they get it wrong, they're young and second choice, only to be expected. If not, they become a little bit of a hero for having done this.
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Toeby
Full Member
Posts: 160
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Post by Toeby on Jan 8, 2011 16:07:53 GMT
Speaking from experience also, I played as a defender initially when I played youth football, before going in goal. I then went on to play a good standard of youth football as a keeper for several years before switching back to a centre back and I'd say that being a keeper is about confidence. The further back you go on the pitch, the more noticeable a defensive mistake is. If a striker misses a tackle he still has a midfield, defence and the last line - a keeper to stop the attack. Even if a centre back has a howler he can still get rescued by his keeper, as you often see. However, if the keeper has a hack it's often a goal. The thing I found is how well you can pick yourself up after making a mistake and that is certainly not a trait found more commonly in older players.There are a lot of keepers who have done well at a young age and are still doing it now, besides, if you don't play a keeper because he's 'too young', how is he ever going to become experienced? I have to really disagree with you there. Older players have cooler heads and more self-belief, so almost always deal with mistakes better than young players. There are keepers that do well at a young age, however, that's more like age 23-5, which is still young for a keeper. Joe Hart emerged around this time, I believe, as has Kasper Schmeichel, as did Cech (who isn't really up to the standard he was then!) and as has Manuel Neuer. Younger than that keepers are almost universally second choice. However, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying young keepers shouldn't play, no way. Cup football is a perfect opportunity to play keepers, because the confidence keepers will gain by keeping their team in the cup is far greater than in a league match. Also, being a second choice in the league can be equally exciting for a keeper, as when they get their chance (see Tim Krul) they're often very up for it. At this point they can generally do no wrong - if they get it wrong, they're young and second choice, only to be expected. If not, they become a little bit of a hero for having done this. I believe Joe Hart emerged as a talent at Shrewsbury around 19 because he was playing regularly. At 19 Cech was playing regularly for Sparta Prague. At around 20 odd Neuer was Schalke's number 1. Undoubtedly, playing games brings experience that improves players. Keepers having longer careers is no excuse to ignore them when they are younger, perhaps the reason Hart is England number 1 over Ben Foster is because he sought out first team football all through his younger years? Whilst Foster warmed the Man United bench. The argument of cup or league football doesn't really matter either, if they're good enough, play them!
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Post by kenskeen on Jan 8, 2011 16:34:27 GMT
Very difficult decision - a young player at a Premier league team who makes one mistake can have their confidence smashed and their career ruined, there's a huge difference between playing for Sparta or Shrewsbury than for Man United or Arsenal -even though the quality of the stops they make may be the same.. it's clear that why Arsenal haven't bought a keeper is that they think that Szczenczy is of that quality. Judging by his PL debut at Old Trafford and his form at Brentford he a great keeper in the making, (and he had a very good game today) - but getting the balance correct between protecting a long career and giving a keeper experience and confidence and the chance to learn is very difficult.
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